Trouble with custom objects for Unleashed Editor : no SLT conversion possible

[JLBowser]

Hi everyone ! 

First : congrats and thanks for all of that, I mean those tools, those tutorials and this community !


After trying everything my 3d beginner level allows me to do, I must admit I need help.

I used to be a heavy MCM track maker, and now I'm making tracks for MVA Unleashed that I've discovered a few days ago. My goal is to make very natural tracks, with no 'human' things if possible, and so I'm trying to import the maximum of natural objects (mostly trees) in the editor.

The problem is that I can't manage to get some objects in the Unleashed Editor because Milkshape crashes during SLT export.
I've tried the 3dsmax/Unibastard option, but it seems that the current 3dsmax versions won't load the Unibastard plugin (correct me if I'm wrong). Milkshape appears to be the only solution for me.

I'm using this method (using Milkshape 3d, by importing a 3ds file then exporting into SLT then converting the file with SLT2DLG then modifying the Model.lib file) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5mV0YdecSM

It worked perfectly for the first object I've tried to use (it's still working everytime for this one btw, but for some reason it has no shadow at all in the game), but for some specific objects I try to export Milkshape crashes at the very first part of the export process. I'm completely new to 3d and I'm clueless about what to modify in Milkshape to make them work.

Do any of you know what could lead a downloaded 3ds file to crash Milkshape 3D during SLT export, and what should I try to correct that ?

And if any of you knows an other way to use a downloaded 3d file into Unleashed editor, I think I'd like it better... 


Thanks in advance !

[Fixer]

You need max 3.1 to use the unibastard.dll.
It could be anything causing it to crash in milkshape but certain downloaded  3ds files can have "problems" trying to import or convert. I've always preferred max, myself

[JLBowser]

Thanks for your answer Fixer.

So far I haven't found any source for Max 3.1 in english, that's why I've tried Milkshape instead.

[mcm2boys]

The object shadows are painted into the track texture they are not generated by the game. The unleashed editor will generate them and then bake them into the texture at the push of a couple of buttons. So do you mean that the shadows aren't being rendered by the editor?

For the SLT exporter, there are some limits on the size of objects that might cause it to crash. The 3DS importer for Milkshape doesn't always work very well, so it is worth checking your model in Milkshape after importing it to make sure everything is the way it should be. For instance if you have joints they should all be linked back to a single root joint, the SLT exporter doesn't like multiple root joints.

Do you mind sending me the object that crashes to look at and try out myself?

[JLBowser]

The object shadows are painted into the track texture they are not generated by the game. The unleashed editor will generate them and then bake them into the texture at the push of a couple of buttons. So do you mean that the shadows aren't being rendered by the editor?

Actually it had no shadow at all : no 3d shadow or lighting effects on it, and no shadow on terrain, just plain bright color. The lighting effects in the editor never affected it in any way. I really don't know what I'm doing wrong, probably something with the lighting or the textures, but it appeared OK in Milkshape after I applied a texture to it. And before I tried to apply a texture and new lighting effects, it appeared plain grey in the game and editor, but green in Milkshape. I really don't get it : what you see in Milkshape seems to be totally different from what you see in the game, I must be missing something.

For the SLT exporter, there are some limits on the size of objects that might cause it to crash. The 3DS importer for Milkshape doesn't always work very well, so it is worth checking your model in Milkshape after importing it to make sure everything is the way it should be. For instance if you have joints they should all be linked back to a single root joint, the SLT exporter doesn't like multiple root joints.

I'm really sorry, I know I have to learn about this all (I'm going to read about those joints right now, I don't even know what I'm supposed to select to correct this), but for now I'm just getting nearly nothing about those 3d things, and that's why I thought it would be easier to try with already made 3d objects for my first learning step. For instance yesterday I've imported a new object into the editor (converted from a downloaded 3ds file), but it was totally white (it was supposed to be a green textured hedge) and ridiculously small, and most of all it was an unexpected death trap since the player could enter the hedge and never come out from it. I should share this file, it might be hilarious. 

(Unleashed Editor screenshot)

I know nothing comes easy, but it's a very hard beginning for me (and believe me I'm OK to learn everything I need) : all the objects I want to use crash during import, export, or do not show properly. I don't even know what to try or modify, and after reading all the tutos and forums about object creators for MVA, I haven't found a single clue to explain why some objects work and some others crash every software. I'm not good enough to create my own 3d objects, so my only solution is downloading them, but the downloaded objects crash Milkshape or appear tiny and plain coloured in the game.
I've also searched for objects ready to use in Unleashed editor, but I must say the natural objects are very hard to find. I've heard about an eco pak that I can't find anywhere, and single trees, bushes, grass and natural hedges are impossible to find in MVA databases since people mainly share classic motocross stuff. I've collected RES and ESB files, but I've found no solution to use them in the editor as single objects.

Do you mind sending me the object that crashes to look at and try out myself?

No prob, here are two examples of objects I've tried to convert a thousand times in a thousand ways (I'm making a vegetal labyrinth, my tracks are all trick-based) :
- This one crashes during SLT export at the "building vertex" step
megaupload
speedyshare
yousendit
- This is a pack containing downloaded hedges objects. Most of them can't even be loaded in Milkshape. The first object (the gate) loads but crashes during export.
megaupload
speedyshare
yousendit

BTW I've finally found Max3.1, and that's a new big fail for me : the "save" window never appeared when using Unibastard, so I was unable to export the object. I'm using WinXP SP3.

Thanks a lot for your help !

[mcm2boys]

I played with tree.3ds and reminded me of some more of the issues with downloaded models - like fixer said downloaded models can have a lot of hidden problems.

First thing is do you have the latest version of the SLT exporter? If not you can get it here, http://www.twisteddirt.com/ms3dsltexport.php it is more stable and checks to see if the model is too big. Some models are made for image rendering and so can use as many polies they need to make a model look real with no worries about how long it takes to render. But games have to limit the number of polies in the models so that the whole scene can be rendered in 1/30 or 1/60 th of a second. Milkshape was written for people making models for games and so has a limit on the number of polies it supports. Some of these models simply have too many polies and that's probably why they won't load and also why the exporter won't export them.

The latest version of the exporter will tell you if there are too many polies - which it did when i tried to export the tree.3ds. Something else i was reminded of is that 3DMax uses a different co-ordinate system to DirectX (used by MvA) It swaps the Y and Z axis, so you will usually need to rotate the models by 90 degrees about the X axis.

The lighting that you describe reminds me of issues that i had with the normals. Normals are attached to each vertex in the models and tell the renderer how the light hits the surface of the poly. The normal is usually calculated from the a combination of all the polies that use the vertex, and roughly points outward in the average direction of all the polies faces that use it. The direction a poly faces depends on the order the vertices are listed in the poly. If when you are looking at the poly you trace each of the 3 vertices in the order they are listed in the face definition, and you trace out a clockwise rotation then you are looking at the front of the poly and then the normal for that poly is towards you out of the screen. otherwise you are looking at the back of the poly and the normal would be away from you. (This is for DirectX = MvA)

It could be that the normals are facing the wrong directions giving you strange light issues.

I also noticed that the textures are buried in the 3DS file, you will need TGA versions of the textures for the converter(s) to add to the model file otherwise they will appear all white in game.

The problem with downloaded models is that all this info is loaded by the importer as it is set in the model file, which might have weird values depending on what the original model builder wanted to do with it. The SLT exporter works on the data that it finds in the model and exports it, there is no way for it to know whether it's right for what you want to do with it or not.

I guess what i'm saying is even though at first it doesn't look like it, it is usually way easier to make your own models or other models related to this game or games generally than use downloaded files.

The RES files that you mentioned are from MCM and i don't think will work with MvA (it's been a while so i may be wrong). ESB's are similar between MvA and MCM but i can't remember if they will work or not.

Sorry i can't help with Max since i don't use it.

Hope that helps.
Laurie

[JLBowser]

Thanks a lot for all these details Laurie, now I'm starting to see more clearly. You're right : everytime I import any 3ds file into Milkshape I have to rotate the model. I've updated the SLT exporter, I hope it won't crash before telling me about the polies. Concerning the lighting, I think I've found what was wrong with my files, but I need some more tries.

Some things have changed since yesterday, I have corrected a few problems after trying everything I can. Now I'm starting to understand the things better.

The two main new things are :
1/ I've found why my objects were completely white, and now I've imported a very simple hedge that works in the game. It was something I hadn't understood with the textures. At first I thought they are included in every 3d object and kept between conversions. Now I know that they need to be repacked during the SLT to DXG conversion, and I've finally obtained textured objects. But I don't get how people make wonderful textures, mine is awfully stretched around the object and I can't use a file bigger than 256x256 or the Unleashed editor crashes. I need a few more tries, and I have to unpack a beautiful object first to understand how it has been made.
2/ Now Unibastard is working, so I can use 3DSMax if I want. For some reason, the "save" window won't appear if you don't click anywhere on the object after clicking the "export SLT" button. No SLT conversion crashed the software so far, but most of the time SLT2DXG tells me the converson is impossible because there are too many vertices.

Milkshape was written for people making models for games and so has a limit on the number of polies it supports.

Then maybe I should search for low poly 3d models instead. I'm gonna search for game models.

Now there are a few things I still don't understand at all.

Regarding the textures : is it really impossible to use files that are larger than 256x256 for custom objects, as said in the Unibastard tuto ? I've seen a Youtube video (that I can't find back for the moment) showing the building of an object with a texture file that has stupid dimensions, something like 289x57 32bit tga... I'm only trying to understand how people get wonderful textures for their objects (some rocks are really amazing), and if the answer is not in the texture size then I need to learn something more about texture mapping...

Regarding the trees : is there a trick you know that could (semi-automatically) reduce the number of polygons of a downloaded 3ds file ? I've tried the Optimize tool from 3DSMax, but I'm always far beyond the limit. I know there will be a big quality loss, but so far this is the best way for me to get a tree. Building one myself would be the biggest quality loss of all time.

I guess what i'm saying is even though at first it doesn't look like it, it is usually way easier to make your own models or other models related to this game or games generally than use downloaded files.

I really think you're right, considering the textures, vertices and lighting problems of my downloaded files. But learning how to make vegetal elements appears to be a much harder work for a beginner... 

Thanks once again for your help ! 

[Fixer]

Modeling can be a lot of fun and frustrating at the same time...
Have you tried any of the MCM2 objects? Almost everybody making models built great looking low poly objects with 256x256 textures

I seem to remember a slt-dxg converter but I'm not sure if it was TD only?

I'm not sure if you can import slt's to Milkshake...LOL but I've got some uploaded here, with no restriction on use:

http://www.twisteddirt.com/mcm2objFIXER.php

I also made a rock pack I uploaded for free use, it has about 400+ different rocks, size,shape-texture.

I was working on some low poly trees, I'd have to hunt to find those things but I got them somewhere...

[JLBowser]

Thanks Fixer. Your water tower will probably be part of one of my tracks, that's the kind of things I like.
Low poly trees ? Sounds great ! I'm trying to make some too, but eh... I failed !
Is the rock pack you're talking about located on this page ? This link is dead...

Have you tried any of the MCM2 objects? Almost everybody making models built great looking low poly objects with 256x256 textures

I'd love to use MCM2 objects, but where could I find natural objects such as trees, plants and grass ? I've seen mostly ramps and bales on MCM2 websites, and I don't need this for what I'm doing.

For the moment I'm still mainly trying to create hedges that would look like this :



in order to make a track that would look like that :



I would settle for a single beautiful straight hedge btw... 


And I've finally succeeded in creating a working tree, but I've got a new problem that I can't explain...



What kind of shadow is this tree making ?!? 

[mcm2boys]

That shadow has me foxed..

It looks like there is an extra vertex way above the tree that isn't visible in the model but is obviously getting shadowed. I would have to guess that it's a fault in the DXG file, it is worth removing the optimisation option when using the convertor if you are using it, unfortunately it's not foolproof. Sometimes you won't see the polies in the model if there are large areas of transparent texture on them.

If you want to learn about how to texture models do a search for 'UV mapping'. Each vertex also has 2 mapping values, U and V, which are between 0 and 1 that tells the renderer where that vertex appears in the texture map. A poly gets texured by applying the texture to the face between the 3 vertices of the poly using their respective UV values. In Milkshape use ctrl-t to open the texture mapper. I don't find it very intuitive, you have to select the points that you want to texture, then press ctrl-t then you can move the vertices about on the texture map to adjust the UV mapping. But first you will also have to select the correct view in the texture mapper using one of the drop down boxes. There is a limit on the texture sizes, but i don't remember what it is, in MvA it went up i believe but again i don't remember what it is. 256 x 256 should be plenty for most models, but that is something that not everyone agrees on..

For trees, although it looks like your getting there on your own, the RBW trees were usually a central trunk made from a 6 sided cylinder, then the leaves were different sizes of triangles with branches of leaves mapped on them, coming off the trunk at different angles to make up the foliage.The whole thing can be made quite quickly by duplicating the leave then shrinking and moving etc. you could also add upper branches by copy & pasting - resizing and rotating the trunk. The whole model would be less than 100 vertices.

SLT2DXG was released to world + dog, and can also generate collision models from your SLT. However for trees you will want to probably only have the trunk with collision, which will mean making a new model (or stripping down the tree model to just a trunk) in order to make the collision model and make it separately then bundle them together in the PAK/LIB files.

For a straight hedge you could start with an over size bale and texture it in foliage, or for more realism go with the foliage method from the tree on top of that..


Hope that helps.

In 2 days you've already become quite a modeller.

[JLBowser]

Thanks a lot for all those advices and ideas !

Hedge problem is officially solved. 



The texture is a 1024x1024 24 bit tga file, and it's perfectly working in the game. But some faces are distorded, and I'm trying to understand what I can do to fix that. Maybe I'm missing something, but it appears to me that I have to use quite short hedges so the texture isn't stretched too much on the long faces.

If you want to learn about how to texture models do a search for 'UV mapping'

Yes, I'm using the UVMapper software to render my TGA file, I've found a topic about this somewhere. But for the moment I'm applying the method they've described without understanding what I'm doing, and that's something I hate. 

SLT2DXG was released to world + dog, and can also generate collision models from your SLT. However for trees you will want to probably only have the trunk with collision, which will mean making a new model (or stripping down the tree model to just a trunk) in order to make the collision model and make it separately then bundle them together in the PAK/LIB files.

Great idea ! I have already downloaded a collision editor software for that, but indeed making two different models is the trick !

For a straight hedge you could start with an over size bale and texture it in foliage, or for more realism go with the foliage method from the tree on top of that..

I've succeeded in creating a decent hedge, but I've heard about alpha maps that could possibly make more convincing hedges. I've understood the idea, but now I need to learn how to use it. New step for today.

Thanks again guys ! 

[mcm2boys]

Great job, glad to see you got it worked out.

[ElDiablo (Paul)]

You've got too many 'faces' from what I'm seeing. Make them simpler...with a single face per side of the hedge. If you want them different sizes then you'll have to mess with the textures (and/or skinning in your 3D proggy). But the hedges you are showing above (simple straight hedge rows) should only be 2 polys per side or a total of 12 polys. So check your poly count first of all. Each face btw is 2 polys. POLY COUNT is the main thing to focus on keeping LOW. The lower the better. Therefore if you want to create really great objects that others will use, your job must become OBJECT OPTIMIZATION. Get rid of the extra 'faces' and you'll find that skinning your object is a LOT easier. To restate my point...these hedges should just be basic rectagular boxes with 2 polys (1 face) per side of the object.

[ElDiablo (Paul)]

BTW Laurie...does MVA allow object bump mapping? How about Reflex? The thing that I see that makes the above objects look slightly less than 'realistic' is the square edqes on the bushes...but making them natural would cost SO much in POLYS that it would be counter-productive to do so. At least with MVA...I don't know how much more GUSTO Reflex has...YET!

[mcm2boys]

To be honest Paul i don't remember exactly but i'm pretty sure Unleashed doesn't support bump mapping on models except the terrain of course. Reflex i think does - i haven't checked it out - but it uses shaders and in theory you could create and add your own shaders so at lot more is possible - with the right tools..

[JLBowser]

You've got too many 'faces' from what I'm seeing. Make them simpler...with a single face per side of the hedge. If you want them different sizes then you'll have to mess with the textures (and/or skinning in your 3D proggy). But the hedges you are showing above (simple straight hedge rows) should only be 2 polys per side or a total of 12 polys. So check your poly count first of all. Each face btw is 2 polys. POLY COUNT is the main thing to focus on keeping LOW. The lower the better. Therefore if you want to create really great objects that others will use, your job must become OBJECT OPTIMIZATION. Get rid of the extra 'faces' and you'll find that skinning your object is a LOT easier. To restate my point...these hedges should just be basic rectagular boxes with 2 polys (1 face) per side of the object.

Well, actually this is exactly what I've made here : 9 vertices, 12 facets. Good news if people think it's a complex model, but it's not. 



I don't know at all what the bump mapping could be, but do you guys think I could use some kind of transparency on the textures to make the edges seem less straight ? Maybe that would seem more convincing ? 


By the way I've solved the problem with my interdimensional-shadowed tree. I don't know what happened exactly, but when I export with 3dsmax I get what you can see above, and when I export with Milkshape the shadows appears OK.

My next step in creating objects is a kind of rail that will be the track for an underground mine, for another expert-piloting track. At first it seems nearly impossible to complete my idea, but that is where the fun is. 

[Fixer]

You could put a bevel on the edges without adding many polys.

If you have any transparency it might look fake or weird unless... you put something (a smaller box) underneath to see through > to.

Maybe you would want spots (all over) where you can see through at 100% to the underlying box, might give it some depth?

[JLBowser]

You could put a bevel on the edges without adding many polys.

If you have any transparency it might look fake or weird unless... you put something (a smaller box) underneath to see through > to.

Maybe you would want spots (all over) where you can see through at 100% to the underlying box, might give it some depth?

The spots are a very good idea ! I'm gonna learn how to use transparency tonight, so far I only know how to use a single texture file.

With a very short bevel, it will be more convincing indeed.

Thanks ! 

[ElDiablo (Paul)]

Also you need to stretch out the UVW mapping on the ends so that it doesn't look smooshed like it does now. I've never used Milkshape (I'm a 3D Max guy)...but where you map the texture assignment (visually) you move the mapping points (I haven't done this in a LONG time...so my lingo might not be up to speed) you should be able to see the results in real-time. Just move them out (beyond the edges of the texture) until the end matches the side. Shouldn't be a tough fix at all. That in addition to the bevel that Fixer suggested should get you in the 'ballpark'!