hello to all,
would be nice to have Alive bike physics running in reflex game?.. the most thing that annoys me at reflex is the air time and how the bike bounce and floats, it looks they fixed that a bit in Alive.
In supercross races the real bikes barely reach 2 seconds of air time on triples...
I am sure many people around here share same opinion, please Laurie use your knowledge and make this happen... I am sure this will boost Reflex again along with the possiblity of creating tracks!
Thank You!
:)
Personally, I think the possibility of modding the physics is a bad idea for this game... Mainly because it greatly increases the chances of people being able to cheat...
I think the physics of this game is very realistic, as far as jump height / gravity is concerned. I've built some to-scale ama replica sx tracks, and they run great with reflex. Also I actually like the bounce of the bike when u land at a certain angle because its great for those double, or even triple table-top on-off sections..
My only problem i do have, is the fact that you can land on a flat surface from 20ft in the air, and not even need to use the "rider reflex" to save yourself from a crash...
And I'm sure Alive was previously announced for the PC to be released the same time as console versions... so hey.... fingers crossed... we might see Alive on steam this time next year ::)
But saying that... I hated the supercross feeling in alive. Im not sure if it was the JS7 compound disp maps, or the actual physics, but it felt horrible to me.
What will really give this game a boost, is the ability for custom objects, and event/race creation. Oh yeah... and skins :-\....
hey Jamie you are right about that, the main reason for the death of MVAU was people be able to change the physics for cheating... but in this case only Laurie could change it, nobody else could do it except him... about reflex physics being "very realistic" I disagree, Alive physics are not that real too but at least the bike have more sense of weight (all mx vs atv games have moon physics even alive). What I am saying is reflex could be even better if Laurie fix that moon feel... the rest it's great: rider position and animation, control of the bike... is better than alive!
I think supercross in Alive is terrible too, the bike and rider (almost always sitting down) acts very strange together sometimes it looks like a grasshopper jumping through rythm sections... theres no sense of rythm and speed the bike goes slow motion in the air:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=578SYBfGiTY
Yea fingers crossed for more PC MX/SX games in the future... btw saw your new sx track video for reflex and i liked it, bit narrow but the shapes of the jumps and whoops look sick :)
Thanks for the comments on the track :)
Yeah its alot narrower than the standard tracks people usually make, but the scale is the same as real life sx, that's assuming 1ft = 1 pixel, which i think it is... But what I missed out in my original post was that, when you add friction maps and slip maps to the tracks, it makes the physics feel realistic (to me). :) Its not ideal i guess, but I suppose it helps us mod the physics to some degree.
Its a tricky subject, as everyone has their own preference when it comes to physics.. I checked out maniacs site, and saw a ton of physics packs that people have made for unleashed.
An idea I had a couple of years ago, was some sort of program linked to a server, that checks your physics settings, and it will say whether they have been modded or not by checking a database within the program, of accepted physics settings. I have no idea how it could be coded though... lol
Im glad you agree with me on Alive! Everything you described is what I feel when I play... I was so angry when I played it for the first time :P
I'm guessing you are the guy that made sim physics, and rev etc. So I wondered whether you had experience with any physics programming, other than mva? What Im thinking is, if you're interested in physics you should try your hand at coding your own physics model for some game developement kit, for example Unity, Unreal, Cryengine, Steam. We could get another community made mx game (other than mx sim) going. :P
To be honest discussions about phusics make me nervous because it always seems to start some trouble. At the moment I am busy with the editor and that will take up my time for a long while yet. But to be honest even if i had the time i'm not sure i would want to go down this road, since physics seems to be one of those things that no 2 people seem able to agree which is the right one. Other TD members, like Bruce, who might be interested in modding the physics.
I also don't want to be the physics police because then whatever is done to the physics there will always be a bunch of people who will hassle us about it. If it's left as it is, then they can only blame RBW for their problems and to be honest there is never going to be perfect real world physics.
This doesn't mean that it won't happen but for me at least, it does mean that it won't happen for a while..
Sorry if that's not what you want to hear..
Laurie
You guessed right Jamie, I am the one... ;D
unfortunately I don't know nothing about coding, to make a physics engine or build a mx game, I'am just a person who raced motocross and still ride for real everytime I can!
Yea Laurie I understand and respect your opinion about this subject, I just wan't to thank you for the reply and for your effort in bringing us this "mod goodies" since mcm days!!!
btw Jamie can't wait to try your supercross tracks :)
another video i made comparing reflex and unleashed (rev physics)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFmM7zcgg9w
if someone at TD wishes to improve reflex physics, i would love to help!
Mx Simulator João , Mx Simulator ;D ;D
;D hey hey... mx simulator... atm definitely not my game!
...I can't have fun with it! ;D
Mx Simulator is like MCM1 without the fun :P
I understand that João. 8)
Allow me to fix your message Fixer ;D and its my message :
Mx simulator is like a real bike with all the fun of a real bike. ;D ;D
who can complain about real bikes :P ehehe
We could talk also about mcm3 by 2xl games for pc and later converted to consoles , but thats other story :P
It's fine you like it and think it's good, to me it's nothing like riding a real bike but that doesn't even matter to me,
I actually have to enjoy playing a game before I like it. I gave it a shot more than once and it's just not my cup of tea. :P
Its ok to me that you dont like it , no problem there :) , but say that ""it's nothing like riding a real bike"" , that i dont agree :
1 because its like a real bike , but instead of use all your body , legs , arms ... you use just your fingers and brain (to play this game you need to "teach" ;D your fingers with your brain , but first your brain need learn how all works , to that you need practice ;D ;D )
2 this probably is not applied to you , but some people dont like of a game (specially simulator games , because they are harder , egg car sim games) because they go full throttle almost every where in a track and crash alot offcorse , in the pc doesnt hurt alot ;D , Need be as the real thing , abit more here less there ............. Damn looks like i gave all my tips and now im ......... ;D ;D
For people that like abit more easy racing games , yes ok , i like arcade mx games too , mcm2 , but mx sim is the most real mx game ever done , or you think its not Fixer , talking about real mx ?
Because of the textures ? textures can be changed.
Because you crash alot ? you need some tips lolllll
You cant do 10 laps without crash ? is possible fix that.
what more ???
;D ;D ;D
I should be paid for make a so good xxxxxxx about sim and arcade games cars and bikes lollll :P :P
i agree with VRT_JPRLisbon_. fixer your probably a die hard mx gamer like all of us here but you need to have another go at sim. i tried mxsimulator several times and thought it was unrealistic and just crap. i bet you cant control the bike in the air, and the controls just feel wrong.... but its the first mx game that you have to balance the bike. your brain needs time to learn this and after a while it just feel right. it takes about ten hours of frustrating game play before it just "clicks" i was in the same boat as you, i used to hate it and here i am bible bashing it too you....lol.
what made me have a real go at it was reading somthing that checkers wrote on the mva forums(he previosly worked for rainbow as a track designer for mva games) he said that there is something really special about mx simulator, you just need to get "over the hump". i challenge you fixer to try and get over the hump! trust me you wont regret it!!
heres some quick mx simulator tips, turn arcade phisics off, you must use a controller ( i use an xbox 360), set the setting to these:
(http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr96/alberto167/mx2012-04-2513-18-39-83.jpg)
my controller setup: steering left stick, clutch LB, rear brake LT, gas RT, front brake RB, sit A, gear up x gear down B.
and also pull back on the upramps (this will stop you endoing). just do an easy track like eskwanbee park at first, then do dallas sx. dont worry about bike setups leave them stock for now too.
cheers al167
Haha, mcm1 without the fun :D I agree with you on that!
This game has too many bike setup parameters, and too much "play" within the settings, imo. It feels like I need a degree in physics & engineering to setup the bike.... :)
What I haven't figured out with this game, is how to "ride it from the rear" as they say :) If it's a simulator, then I feel I should be able to lean the bike over, give it some power to kick the back end out, and "drift" around the corner. Anyone found that this is possible?
I can't see how you can have a bike simulator either, with just one steering stick. I feel they should adopt what reflex did with the 2 sticks, for leaning and steering...but actually make it real, unlike reflex, so that you can do real countersteering...
Personally, I don't think there will ever be a true MX Sim, as there are not enough buttons on a game pad to make it so.
Think of the movements in real life in motocross,
Body;
Lean left / right
Lean forward / back
Sit Up /down
Bike;
Lean left / right
Steer left / right
You know? 3 different types of left / right... Then to this, add your front/back brake buttons, gears, clutch, gas etc. It's just too much!!! lol :P
Thoughts?........ :)
Mcm1 without the fun and Mx simulator , just for who doesn't like real mx bike races ahaha ;D
Scroll , scroll and scroll between the pics :P :P
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.158380894174720.31946.158379577508185&type=3
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.158379864174823.31945.158379577508185&type=3
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.158509947495148.31984.158379577508185&type=3
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/535601_415286891817451_158379577508185_1608471_867332675_n.jpg)
I didn't want to start an argument about the merits of MX sim but I can tell you I've been riding dirt bikes for over 40 years and if mx sim feels like riding to you then it must be your brain is much bigger than mine and can determine balance without the use of your vestibular system....
My brain is the same size as your , are you saying that you cant balance something looking at a screen ? dont come with bs's :P
To start 70 stability , then with 50 stab is possible ride well without fall to the side.
And just use your steering after the bike is running (half of a sec after) , this is to dont have the inverted steering when stopped , im used to it but with this tip you dont have it.
Use a gamepad , To throttle and brakes use progressive controls like the triggers or the sticks , dont use buttons , to steer is good use a stick too but use buttons is ok too.
Is possible play well with joystick , the only problem is that the throttle is a button , its not good because its all or nothing , as a real bike you need be able to apply the amount of gas that you want , the same for the breaks.
Oh and other thing , click TAB of your keyboard to change view.
the problem for me is: by the time I "see" I'm off balance then I'm already screwed and fall, which is different than balance on a real bike where you feel what's happening with your balance and you react without thinking about it
I've been playing mxs for the past couple of days since I read this thread.
It seems very strange to have to lean the bike into the corner, and then have to steer the opposite way in the corner to stop yourself falling over... People say this is "balancing", and you have to "balance" the bike around a corner... This is not what happens in real life. Yes you do have to balance the bike, but your brain does not function like the controls in this game. Balance is the first thing you ever learn on a bike, and once you get your "balance" you never lose that ability in your brain.
I re-call a well known saying in England, "Its just like riding a bike"
Which means it's something that your brain will never forget how to do. Which includes going around corners on a bike... Your brain does not think, "ooh left abit, right abit, no too much..." etc.
I'm all for simulation games, I love realism, but why does MXS make something so easy, into something so difficult?
The game is playable for me on arcade physics, because the bike straightens up when you let go of the steering. This type of steering mechanic is present in all racing games ive ever played, because it transfers naturally from your brain. Why go against this convention?
jamie, when you corner in real life if you want to go left you actually steer right slightly to get the bike to lean. then in the corner you steer left and then to straighten the bike up you steer more to the left to pick the bike up. now most people run the steering reversed, hence why you have to steer opposite. you are balancing the bike. also speed helps keep the bike balanced with the centrifugal forces. keep trying, you will get it soon jamie, i was in the same boat as you and even posted on the mxvsatv forums how much i hated the game for this exact reason. but you will click soon!!! (remember ten hours of game play). dont give up you wont regret it!!! you will one day be raving about this game, just gotta get over that dam"hump".
Yeah you are right Al, about the counter-steering stuff. I actually posted on the mxs forums in the suggestion box recently bringing up this very subject, and that I thought it would be good to have dual stick controls like reflex. But obviously make it realistic.
http://forum.mxsimulator.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15335
I'm really not sure how mxs physics work, but it seems on the surface, that you control the lean, and the bars adjust themselves automatically? I'm not too sure, cause there's so many damn stability parameters, and such a wide range, that I find it frustrating that I'm having to setup the bike to do just basic maneuvers...
I also find it impossible to try and imagine that Im counter-steering in that game with just one control stick doing both leaning and the bars. Logically it just doesn't make sense to me, because you don't have true control of the bike. It seems like you are constantly relying on different dampers / levelling, and all the other different settings to stop you losing stability.
It feels like I have to ignore what the bike is doing on the screen, and imagine in my head where the balance is in the bike and pretty much guess how much opposite steering i have to do, and pray that I haven't gone too far and end up flying off the outside of the turn. This for me does not simulate countersteering. I think this is what Fixer was talking about earlier. There is no correspondence to the bike's leaning postion on the screen, and the bikes actual balance.
It's definitely a unique game design for sure, but I DO get it, I think... I think it's because you're having to do all this guess work on balance in your head, rather than reacting to what is actually happening in front of your eyes, that it feels like you've learnt a new skill, if that makes sense? Because this game seems to break all gaming conventions on control systems it feels like you really acheived something. And actually you have, because you've un-conditioned your brain to what every other racing game feels like.
I would love to play this game with separate controls for leaning and steering, but I have a feeling it won't happen.
your exactly right, in real life if you lean the bike and let go the bars they will turn in. there is no rider leaning at the moment, rather the rider is fixed in the upright position. when you steer it tilts the bike so your relying on just your steering to keep your balance(plus the stability is always trying to pick you upright). just set all the settings to stock and then play with only the main stability slider for now. dont overthink the parrameters and just put in some hours, it will come!! you will be able to turn sharp once you get the stability down, but for now keep the stability at 70ish. dont try and decrease the stability too quickly. im six months in and have the stability now at 25. but i was on fifty for months. it just takes alot of time. its deffinately the hardest game i have ever played and your right how it breaks all traditions but its one of the most rewarding games once you get the hang of it. it will feel "right" soon. 8)
heres some cornering tips:
for a left handed turn, come in to the turn standing up. then whilst braking ( using both front and back brakes) pull back and left on the stick. this will slide the bike into the turn with a little opposite lock.
then when in the turn dont keep steering rather just let go the anolog stick. roll the throttle on then when exiting the turn, steer right on the analog stick, this will steer in further and pick the bike up straight.
it sounds simple but all the years of playing normal mx games has trained your brain to do the exact opposite to this.
hope this helps ya!
imo mx sim it's not a simulation (period) I reckon it have potential to be awesome! I rode/ride motorbikes since all my life, and It's nothing like that... it's easy to do a backflip than to ride straight, it's easy to scrub then to corner... the collisions are *#*#*... playing online: if you hit a bike almost stoped, you fall and sometimes if they hit you behind you go off the track and the guy that hit you don't fall... there are so many things that have to be fixed so I could actually have fun with it, and I don't have problems about the graphics and sounds as long as the game makes me smile!
I can make laps at mx sim without crash, I even won a few races online at stock tracks...
btw in my real bike I go full throttle, hit the brakes hard on corners sometimes clutch it and full throttle again... thats not happen at mx sim.. So who gives a damn at picky throttle control in a mx game, this is not an asphalt bike cornering lol!
Hey,
i searched the whole day for a solution for the damn physics in MVA Reflex. Doing this i found the TD site and downloads for a different camera position via .bxml files, so i registered to the forums to ask, how the TD-Team edited the .bxml files, because i wanted to try within these files to raise the gravity-value. And then i found this thread, and i want to give my oppinion on this topic.
First of all, sorry for my english, i try to use correct grammar, but i'm not really familiar with it (wasn't my favourite school-course), but i think you will understand what i want to say.
To me MCM2 was, or still is, the best MX-game on the PC (i dont own a console). The physics are far from reality, but they are consistent and you have alot of fun (well, the supercross tracks i never played, because i couldnt handle the physics there). I played it, from time to time, from ~2000 until today. Six months ago i bought MVA Reflex for 10€, because of the price and the features (control and underground deformation) and the up to date graphics. At first i was very impressed, but pretty fast i disliked it. The control and physics try to be realistic and arcade at the same time, but the mix-up doenst work for me. The bike doesnt jump, it flies, like in MCM2 (arcade), but the mid air AND ground controls wants to be realistic (simulation). The result is: while you want to turn a corner and fight with the balance, a little bump makes you fly, but the momentum from steering and balancing is taken in the "jump" which cause an unexpected and devasting whip or simply guides you out of the "ideal-line" --> your fighting with the steering even harder to get back in a good position for the following ramp, but leaving therefore the ramp too slow or not straight.
I could live with that. But what is really annoying is, when you leave a ramp not straight, because of the ridicoulus flight time you land beside the track, hitting some "bumper-bags" (without causing a crash o.O) then struggling trying to get back on the track hitting some bumper bags again (but with slower speed, and not so directly as before) and fall.
Watching some videos revealed me: i can't ride properly. Maybe its because im playing with keyboard and mouse. That's my problem, i know.
But i can't have fun with this game, it annoys me. On the other hand i continue giving it a further try, because it is has the both new features and awesome graphics with which i WANT it to use it's potential to be my MCM2-Update. But i end up frustrated, smashing alt+F4.
In my oppinion the tracks and the steering needs to be more generous, OR (what would be the easier solution) the gravity must be stronger.
To the MX-S offtopic: i never tried it and will never try it. It is a hell of project, that's for sure and i have a lot of respect for it, the developers and the community. But i would always prefer MCM2, because MX-S doenst look like that you can have "easy" and instant fun with your friends. Furthermore the graphics are pretty the same. I'm not a graphics-fan-boy, but for me "my personal MCM2-follower" shall have up to date graphics. And seeing the new MVA-Series, with the bike and rider controls make the concept of MX-S "old" and less "simulation", although you get there the most realistic riding physics.
Ok, i think i have wrote a little too much, maybe i had let my frustration out. The essential thing i wanted to say is, that Reflex has potential and could deliver an entertaining and natural feeling, if the gravity would be higher, so the jumps wouldn't be so high and far.
Therefore i will try get a solution for this within this forum, since the TD-Team seems to be the only people that are able to modify this game.
If someone of the TD-Team wants to contact me, feel free. I will not abuse this for cheating, the Multiplayer seems to be pretty dead to me anyway (talking about that: the MP system is so bad, why you cant just select from a server list? -.- i hope there will be once an update, even if i know that this will never happen)
See you and a nice week,
christoph
edit: some typing errors, i think there are some more, but i dont see them right now.
All I can say is you got to use a controller or the game just won't play well....in my opinion
the xbox 360 controller works well but I don't like them personally
I found a way to use a joystick which is what I always used in MCM & MCM2,
so with the stick I can turn by L&R movement and twisting the stick gives me rider lean L&R, so I have all the control in my wrist and I don't have to use separate controls to control cornering.
It almost feels like cheating compared to the Xbox360 controller
you sound like me when i first played reflex, i bet your going from one side of the track to the other like bumper bowling. i cant grasp the idea of the keyboard users, i just dont get it, no propotional anything......just full or nothing of everything....just get a xbox controller for windows, you wont regret it (nearly all pc games are designed for that controller these days too), and then play reflex until you finish the game. reflex needs alot of practice.... you will click with it soon!!!
once you have gotten used to it re think your questions.....the phisics arent perfect but you may change your mind a little....
also i cant believe you wont even give mxs a go. its really hard but its very addictive once you get the hang of it.
if your new to reflex pc you can also dl reflex custom tracks at www.mxmaniacs.com (http://www.mxmaniacs.com)
cheers al
I ride using the keyboard, i've tried joysticks but have to take a few steps back in order to take a few steps forward and i ever seem to have the time/patience to keep at it. It's all about timing and modulation - the input from the keyboard isn't as on off as you might think, the game actually ramps the input up/down the longer you hold the keys down, so you have to keep tapping and vary the frequency of the tapping.. The dual control is more difficult, but with the right key mapping, ie the rider l/r keys next to the bike steering keys, you can also slide your fingers over the 2 keys to add some extra rider lean to the steering - takes a little practice but i don't always have a controller handy but my keyboard is always right there in front of me.. :)
Laurie
I once knew a guy who could barely use the keyboard to type anything...I called him a "hunt 'n pecker" and he denied he was doing that...LOL
Who me..? :)
Hey guy's, hope all is well!
Off Topic please; a while back I tried to get reflex working on my new system, as the last one struggled with it, and I can not get the controller configured... is there a link for some help with configuring the controller for reflex on the PC?
Thanks was bummed at the time!
Hey Randall, what controller are you using?
Quote from: Fixer on May 26, 2012, 10:20:34 AM
Hey Randall, what controller are you using?
I have both a Logitech pad and a 360 and I'm running Win 7 64bit Home premium edition!
About MX simulator
Lack of skills to drive a bike properly , turns into that :P
I know its not for all ;D ;D
Quote from: al167 on May 25, 2012, 10:03:18 AM
you sound like me when i first played reflex, i bet your going from one side of the track to the other like bumper bowling. i cant grasp the idea of the keyboard users, i just dont get it, no propotional anything......just full or nothing of everything....just get a xbox controller for windows, you wont regret it (nearly all pc games are designed for that controller these days too), and then play reflex until you finish the game. reflex needs alot of practice.... you will click with it soon!!!
once you have gotten used to it re think your questions.....the phisics arent perfect but you may change your mind a little....
Hm, because of the post of "mcm2boys" i tried first with the keyboard, and i have to admit, that the bike can be handled a lot easier (except for leaning forward and turning, which instantly cause a crash). I can imagine, that the pad-control will be even better. I don't know why i didn't try the keyboard. Maybe because the feeling of beeing connected to the rider was really good with the mouse. Too bad that you can't control him properly with the mouse.
But i stick to my oppinion, that more gravity would improve gameplay. But in terms of anti-hack protection etc. i can live with the physics for now.
And jeah, the custom tracks looks nice. I have a bunch of exams in a few months. After them i will download a few and try to make my own. That you were able to find a way to design and implement custom tracks should,..., should,.... i don't know exactly what you should deserve for such a work. But you guys are awesome =)
CU
Quote from: MX_Rider_ on May 01, 2012, 07:25:35 PM
imo mx sim it's not a simulation (period) I reckon it have potential to be awesome! I rode/ride motorbikes since all my life, and It's nothing like that... it's easy to do a backflip than to ride straight, it's easy to scrub then to corner... the collisions are *#*#*... playing online: if you hit a bike almost stoped, you fall and sometimes if they hit you behind you go off the track and the guy that hit you don't fall... there are so many things that have to be fixed so I could actually have fun with it, and I don't have problems about the graphics and sounds as long as the game makes me smile!
I can make laps at mx sim without crash, I even won a few races online at stock tracks...
btw in my real bike I go full throttle, hit the brakes hard on corners sometimes clutch it and full throttle again... thats not happen at mx sim.. So who gives a damn at picky throttle control in a mx game, this is not an asphalt bike cornering lol!
Joao , You still cant do full throttle after the berms ?
You need more practice , with practice its easy to do full throttle in alot of places in a track specially with 125 and 250f , in real or mxsim tracks.
And with practice is possible push by a 250 2 strokes or a 450 also alot , specially after the berms is always full throttle ;D
Alot of things you said in that post are quite a bit off :P
Quote from: Fixer on May 25, 2012, 02:28:05 PM
I once knew a guy who could barely use the keyboard to type anything...I called him a "hunt 'n pecker" and he denied he was doing that...LOL
loll
I once knew a guy who was always trying to fix other peoples work , saying "this is not right , you did this wrong , its not like that...."
...I called him a "idiot of the worst specie" ahahha ;D ;D and he denied he was like that...LOL LOL LOL ;D ;D ;D