Alive bike physics for Reflex

[al167]

jamie, when you corner in real life if you want to go left you actually steer right slightly to get the bike to lean. then in the corner you steer left and then to straighten the bike up you steer more to the left to pick the bike up. now most people run the steering reversed, hence why you have to steer opposite. you are balancing the bike.  also speed helps keep the bike balanced with the centrifugal forces. keep trying, you will get it soon jamie, i was in the same boat as you and even posted on the mxvsatv forums how much i hated the game for this exact reason. but you will click soon!!! (remember ten hours of game play). dont give up you wont regret it!!! you will one day be raving about this game, just gotta get over that dam"hump".

[JamieT]

Yeah you are right Al, about the counter-steering stuff. I actually posted on the mxs forums in the suggestion box recently bringing up this very subject, and that I thought it would be good to have dual stick controls like reflex. But obviously make it realistic.
http://forum.mxsimulator.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15335


I'm really not sure how mxs physics work, but it seems on the surface, that you control the lean, and the bars adjust themselves automatically? I'm not too sure, cause there's so many damn stability parameters, and such a wide range, that I find it frustrating that I'm having to setup the bike to do just basic maneuvers...


I also find it impossible to try and imagine that Im counter-steering in that game with just one control stick doing both leaning and the bars. Logically it just doesn't make sense to me, because you don't have true control of the bike. It seems like you are constantly relying on different dampers / levelling, and all the other different settings to stop you losing stability.

It feels like I have to ignore what the bike is doing on the screen, and imagine in my head where the balance is in the bike and pretty much guess how much opposite steering i have to do, and pray that I haven't gone too far and end up flying off the outside of the turn. This for me does not simulate countersteering. I think this is what Fixer was talking about earlier. There is no correspondence to the bike's leaning postion on the screen, and the bikes actual balance.

It's definitely a unique game design for sure, but I DO get it, I think... I think it's because you're having to do all this guess work on balance in your head, rather than reacting to what is actually happening in front of your eyes, that it feels like you've learnt a new skill, if that makes sense? Because this game seems to break all gaming conventions on control systems it feels like you really acheived something. And actually you have, because you've un-conditioned your brain to what every other racing game feels like.

I would love to play this game with separate controls for leaning and steering, but I have a feeling it won't happen.

[al167]

your exactly right,  in real life if you lean the bike and let go the bars they will turn in. there is no rider leaning at the moment, rather the rider is fixed in the upright position. when you steer it tilts the bike so your relying on just your steering to keep your balance(plus the stability is always trying to pick you upright). just set all the settings to stock and then play with only the main stability slider for now. dont overthink the parrameters and just put in some hours, it will come!! you will be able to turn sharp once you get the stability down, but for now keep the stability at 70ish. dont try and decrease the stability too quickly. im six months in and have the stability now at 25. but i was on fifty for months. it just takes alot of time. its deffinately the hardest game i have ever played and your right how it breaks all traditions but  its one of the most rewarding games once you get the hang of it. it will feel "right" soon.
heres some cornering tips:
for a left handed turn, come in to the turn standing up. then whilst braking ( using both front and back brakes) pull back and left on the stick. this will slide the bike into the turn with a little opposite lock.
then when in the turn dont keep steering rather just let go the anolog stick.  roll the throttle on then when exiting the turn, steer right on the analog stick, this will steer in further and pick the bike up straight.

it sounds simple but all the years of playing normal mx games has trained your brain to do the exact opposite to this.

hope this helps ya!

[MX_Rider_]

imo mx sim it's not a simulation (period) I reckon it have potential to be awesome! I rode/ride  motorbikes since all my life, and It's nothing like that... it's easy to do a backflip than to ride straight, it's easy to scrub then to corner... the collisions are *#*#*... playing online: if you hit a bike almost stoped, you fall and sometimes if they hit you behind you go off the track and the guy that hit you don't fall...  there are so many things that have to be fixed so I could actually have fun with it, and I don't have problems about the graphics and sounds as long as the game makes me smile!

I can make laps at mx sim without crash, I even won a few races online at stock tracks...

btw in my real bike I go full throttle, hit the brakes hard on corners sometimes clutch it and full throttle again... thats not happen at mx sim.. So who gives a damn at picky throttle control in a mx game, this is not an asphalt bike cornering lol!

[Razmatazz]

Hey,

i searched the whole day for a solution for the damn physics in  MVA Reflex. Doing this i found the TD site and downloads for a different camera position via .bxml files, so i registered to the forums to ask, how the TD-Team edited the .bxml files, because i wanted to try within these files to raise the gravity-value. And then i found this thread, and i want to give my oppinion on this topic.

First of all, sorry for my english, i try to use correct grammar, but i'm not really familiar with it (wasn't my favourite school-course), but i think you will understand what i want to say.

To me MCM2 was, or still is, the best MX-game on the PC (i dont own a console). The physics are far from reality, but they are consistent and you have alot of fun (well, the supercross tracks i never played, because i couldnt handle the physics there). I played it, from time to time, from ~2000 until today. Six months ago i bought MVA Reflex for 10€, because of the price and the features (control and underground deformation) and the up to date graphics. At first i was very impressed, but pretty fast i disliked it. The control and physics try to be realistic and arcade at the same time, but the mix-up doenst work for me. The bike doesnt jump, it flies, like in MCM2 (arcade), but the mid air AND ground controls wants to be realistic (simulation). The result is: while you want to turn a corner and fight with the balance, a little bump makes you fly, but the momentum from steering and balancing is taken in the "jump" which cause an unexpected and devasting whip or simply guides you out of the "ideal-line" --> your fighting with the steering even harder to get back in a good position for the following ramp, but leaving therefore the ramp too slow or not straight.
I could live with that. But what is really annoying is, when you leave a ramp not straight, because of the ridicoulus flight time you land beside the track, hitting some "bumper-bags" (without causing a crash o.O) then struggling trying to get back on the track hitting some bumper bags again (but with slower speed, and not so directly as before) and fall.

Watching some videos revealed me: i can't ride properly. Maybe its because im playing with keyboard and mouse. That's my problem, i know.
But i can't have fun with this game, it annoys me. On the other hand i continue giving it a further try, because it is has the both new features and awesome graphics with which i WANT it to use it's potential to be my MCM2-Update. But i end up frustrated, smashing alt+F4.
In my oppinion the tracks and the steering needs to be more generous, OR (what would be the easier solution) the gravity must be stronger.

To the MX-S offtopic: i never tried it and will never try it. It is a hell of project, that's for sure and i have a lot of respect for it, the developers and the community. But i would always prefer MCM2, because MX-S doenst look like that you can have "easy" and instant fun with your friends. Furthermore the graphics are pretty the same. I'm not a graphics-fan-boy, but for me "my personal MCM2-follower" shall have up to date graphics. And seeing the new MVA-Series, with the bike and rider controls make the concept of MX-S "old" and less "simulation", although you get there the most realistic riding physics.




Ok, i think i have wrote a little too much, maybe i had let my frustration out. The essential thing i wanted to say is, that Reflex has potential and could deliver an entertaining and natural feeling, if the gravity would be higher, so the jumps wouldn't be so high and far.

Therefore i will try get a solution for this within this forum, since the TD-Team seems to be the only people that are able to modify this game.
If someone of the TD-Team wants to contact me, feel free. I will not abuse this for cheating, the Multiplayer seems to be pretty dead to me anyway (talking about that: the MP system is so bad, why you cant just select from a server list? -.- i hope there will be once an update, even if i know that this will never happen)

See you and a nice week,
christoph

edit: some typing errors, i think there are some more, but i dont see them right now.

[Fixer]

All I can say is you got to use a controller or the game just won't play well....in my opinion

the xbox 360 controller works well but I don't like them personally

I found a way to use a joystick which is what I always used in MCM & MCM2,

so with the stick I can turn by L&R movement and twisting the stick gives me rider lean L&R, so I have all the control in my wrist and I don't have to use separate controls to control cornering.

It almost feels like cheating compared to the Xbox360 controller

[al167]

you sound like me when i first played reflex, i bet your going from one side of the track to the other like bumper bowling. i cant grasp the idea of the keyboard users, i just dont get it, no propotional anything......just full or nothing of everything....just get a xbox controller for windows, you wont regret it (nearly all pc games are designed for that controller these days too), and then play reflex until you finish the game. reflex needs alot of practice.... you will click with it soon!!!
once you have gotten used to it re think your questions.....the phisics arent perfect but you may change your mind a little....

also i cant believe you wont even give mxs a go. its really hard but its very addictive once you get the hang of it.

if your new to reflex pc you can also dl reflex custom tracks at www.mxmaniacs.com


cheers al

[mcm2boys]

I ride using the keyboard, i've tried joysticks but have to take a few steps back in order to take a few steps forward and i ever seem to have the time/patience to keep at it. It's all about timing and modulation - the input from the keyboard isn't as on off as you might think, the game actually ramps the input up/down the longer you hold the keys down, so you have to keep tapping and vary the frequency of the tapping.. The dual control is more difficult, but with the right key mapping, ie the rider l/r keys next to the bike steering keys, you can also slide your fingers over the 2 keys to add some extra rider lean to the steering - takes a little practice but i don't always have a controller handy but my keyboard is always right there in front of me..   

Laurie

[Fixer]

I once knew a guy who could barely use the keyboard to type anything...I called him a "hunt 'n pecker" and he denied he was doing that...LOL

[mcm2boys]

Who me..?   

[RKipker]

Hey guy's, hope all is well! 

Off Topic please; a while back I tried to get reflex working on my new system, as the last one struggled with it, and I can not get the controller configured... is there a link for some help with configuring the controller for reflex on the PC?
Thanks was bummed at the time!

[Fixer]

Hey Randall, what controller are you using?

[RKipker]

Hey Randall, what controller are you using?

I have both a Logitech pad and a 360 and I'm running Win 7 64bit Home premium edition!

[VRT_JPRLisbon_]

About MX simulator

Lack of skills to drive a bike properly , turns into that 

I know its not for all 

[Razmatazz]

you sound like me when i first played reflex, i bet your going from one side of the track to the other like bumper bowling. i cant grasp the idea of the keyboard users, i just dont get it, no propotional anything......just full or nothing of everything....just get a xbox controller for windows, you wont regret it (nearly all pc games are designed for that controller these days too), and then play reflex until you finish the game. reflex needs alot of practice.... you will click with it soon!!!
once you have gotten used to it re think your questions.....the phisics arent perfect but you may change your mind a little....

Hm, because of the post of "mcm2boys" i tried first with the keyboard, and i have to admit, that the bike can be handled a lot easier (except for leaning forward and turning, which instantly cause a crash). I can imagine, that the pad-control will be even better. I don't know why i didn't try the keyboard. Maybe because the feeling of beeing connected to the rider was really good with the mouse. Too bad that you can't control him properly with the mouse.

But i stick to my oppinion, that more gravity would improve gameplay. But in terms of anti-hack protection etc. i can live with the physics for now.

And jeah, the custom tracks looks nice. I have a bunch of exams in a few months. After them i will download a few and try to make my own. That you were able to find a way to design and implement custom tracks should,..., should,.... i don't know exactly what you should deserve for such a work. But you guys are awesome =)

CU

[VRT_JPRLisbon_]

imo mx sim it's not a simulation (period) I reckon it have potential to be awesome! I rode/ride  motorbikes since all my life, and It's nothing like that... it's easy to do a backflip than to ride straight, it's easy to scrub then to corner... the collisions are *#*#*... playing online: if you hit a bike almost stoped, you fall and sometimes if they hit you behind you go off the track and the guy that hit you don't fall...  there are so many things that have to be fixed so I could actually have fun with it, and I don't have problems about the graphics and sounds as long as the game makes me smile!

I can make laps at mx sim without crash, I even won a few races online at stock tracks...

btw in my real bike I go full throttle, hit the brakes hard on corners sometimes clutch it and full throttle again... thats not happen at mx sim.. So who gives a damn at picky throttle control in a mx game, this is not an asphalt bike cornering lol!

Joao , You still cant do full throttle after the berms ?
You need more practice , with practice its easy to do full throttle in alot of places in a track specially with 125 and 250f , in real or mxsim tracks.
And with practice is possible push by a 250 2 strokes or a 450 also alot , specially after the berms is always full throttle 

Alot of things you said in that post are quite a bit off 

[VRT_JPRLisbon_]

I once knew a guy who could barely use the keyboard to type anything...I called him a "hunt 'n pecker" and he denied he was doing that...LOL

loll

I once knew a guy who was always trying to fix other peoples work , saying "this is not right , you did this wrong , its not like that...."
...I called him a "idiot of the worst specie" ahahha  and he denied he was like that...LOL LOL LOL