Alive bike physics for Reflex

[MX_Rider_]

hello to all,

would be nice to have Alive bike physics running in reflex game?.. the most thing that annoys me at reflex is the air time and how the bike bounce and floats, it looks they fixed that a bit in Alive.
In supercross races the real bikes barely reach 2 seconds of air time on triples...

I am sure many people around here share same opinion, please Laurie use your knowledge and make this happen... I am sure this will boost Reflex again along with the possiblity of creating tracks!

Thank You!

[JamieT]

Personally, I think the possibility of modding the physics is a bad idea for this game... Mainly because it greatly increases the chances of people being able to cheat...
I think the physics of this game is very realistic, as far as jump height / gravity is concerned. I've built some to-scale ama replica sx tracks, and they run great with reflex. Also I actually like the bounce of the bike when u land at a certain angle because its great for those double, or even triple table-top on-off sections..

My only problem i do have, is the fact that you can land on a flat surface from 20ft in the air, and not even need to use the "rider reflex" to save yourself from a crash...

And I'm sure Alive was previously announced for the PC to be released the same time as console versions... so hey.... fingers crossed... we might see Alive on steam this time next year
But saying that... I hated the supercross feeling in alive. Im not sure if it was the JS7 compound disp maps, or the actual physics, but it felt horrible to me.

What will really give this game a boost, is the ability for custom objects, and event/race creation. Oh yeah... and skins ....

[MX_Rider_]

hey Jamie you are right about that, the main reason for the death of MVAU was people be able to change the physics for cheating... but in this case only Laurie could change it, nobody else could do it except him...  about  reflex physics being "very realistic" I  disagree, Alive physics are not that real too but at least the bike have more sense of weight (all mx vs atv games have moon physics even alive). What I am saying is reflex could be even better if Laurie fix that moon feel... the rest it's great: rider position and animation, control of the bike... is better than alive!

I think supercross in Alive is terrible too, the bike and rider (almost always sitting down) acts very strange together sometimes it looks like a grasshopper jumping through rythm sections... theres no sense of rythm and speed the bike goes slow motion in the air:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=578SYBfGiTY

Yea fingers crossed for more PC MX/SX games in the future... btw saw your new sx track video for reflex and i liked it, bit narrow but the shapes of the jumps and whoops look sick

[JamieT]

Thanks for the comments on the track
Yeah its alot narrower than the standard tracks people usually make, but the scale is the same as real life sx, that's assuming 1ft = 1 pixel, which i think it is... But what I missed out in my original post was that, when you add friction maps and slip maps to the tracks, it makes the physics feel realistic (to me). Its not ideal i guess, but I suppose it helps us mod the physics to some degree.

Its a tricky subject, as everyone has their own preference when it comes to physics.. I checked out maniacs site, and saw a ton of physics packs that people have made for unleashed.

An idea I had a couple of years ago, was some sort of program linked to a server, that checks your physics settings, and it will say whether they have been modded or not by checking a database within the program, of accepted physics settings. I have no idea how it could be coded though... lol

Im glad you agree with me on Alive! Everything you described is what I feel when I play... I was so angry when I played it for the first time

I'm guessing you are the guy that made sim physics, and rev etc. So I wondered whether you had experience with any physics programming, other than mva? What Im thinking is, if you're interested in physics you should try your hand at coding your own physics model for some game developement kit, for example Unity, Unreal, Cryengine, Steam. We could get another community made mx game (other than mx sim) going.

[mcm2boys]

To be honest discussions about phusics make me nervous because it always seems to start some trouble. At the moment I am busy with the editor and that will take up my time for a long while yet. But to be honest even if i had the time i'm not sure i would want to go down this road, since physics seems to be one of those things that no 2 people seem able to agree which is the right one. Other TD members, like Bruce, who might be interested in modding the physics.

I also don't want to be the physics police because then whatever is done to the physics there will always be a bunch of people who will hassle us about it. If it's left as it is, then they can only blame RBW for their problems and to be honest there is never going to be perfect real world physics.

This doesn't mean that it won't happen but for me at least, it does mean that it won't happen for a while..

Sorry if that's not what you want to hear..
Laurie

[MX_Rider_]

You guessed right Jamie, I am the one... 
unfortunately I don't know nothing about coding, to make a physics engine or build a mx game, I'am just a person who raced motocross and still ride for real everytime I can!

Yea Laurie I understand and respect your opinion about this subject, I just wan't to thank you for the reply and for your effort in bringing us this "mod goodies" since mcm days!!!

btw Jamie can't wait to try your supercross tracks

[MX_Rider_]

another video i made comparing reflex and unleashed (rev physics)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFmM7zcgg9w

if someone at TD wishes to improve reflex physics, i would love to help!

[VRT_JPRLisbon_]

Mx Simulator João , Mx Simulator 

[MX_Rider_]

  hey hey... mx simulator... atm definitely not my game!

...I can't have fun with it! 

[Fixer]

Mx Simulator is like MCM1 without the fun 

[VRT_JPRLisbon_]

I understand that João. 

Allow me to fix your message Fixer    and its my message :
Mx simulator is like a real bike with all the fun of a real bike. 

who can complain about real bikes     ehehe

We could talk also about mcm3 by 2xl games for pc and later converted to consoles , but thats other story 

[Fixer]

It's fine you like it and think it's good, to me it's nothing like riding a real bike but that doesn't even matter to me,
I actually have to enjoy playing a game before I like it. I gave it a shot more than once and it's just not my cup of tea. 

[VRT_JPRLisbon_]

Its ok to me that you dont like it , no problem there  , but say that ""it's nothing like riding a real bike"" , that i dont agree :

1 because its like a real bike , but instead of use all your body , legs , arms ...  you use just your fingers and brain (to play this game you need to "teach"  your fingers with your brain , but first your brain need learn how all works , to that you need practice  )

2 this probably is not applied  to you , but some people dont like of a game (specially simulator games , because they are harder , egg car sim games) because they go full throttle almost every where in a track and crash alot  offcorse ,  in the pc doesnt hurt alot  ,  Need be as the real thing , abit more here less there .............  Damn looks like i gave all my tips and now im .........

For people that like abit more easy racing games , yes ok , i like arcade mx games too , mcm2  , but mx sim is the most real mx game ever done , or you think its not Fixer  , talking about real mx ?
Because of the textures ? textures can be changed.
Because you crash alot ? you need some tips lolllll
You cant do 10 laps without crash ? is possible fix that.
what more



I should be paid for make a so good xxxxxxx about sim and arcade games cars and bikes  lollll 

[al167]

i agree with VRT_JPRLisbon_. fixer your probably a die hard mx gamer like all of us here but you need to have another go at sim. i tried mxsimulator several times and thought it was unrealistic and just crap. i bet you cant control the bike in the air, and the controls just feel wrong.... but its the first mx game that you have to balance the bike. your brain needs time to learn this and after a while it just feel right. it takes about ten hours of frustrating game play before it just "clicks" i was in the same boat as you, i used to hate it and here i am bible bashing it too you....lol.
what made me have a real go at it was reading somthing that checkers wrote on the mva forums(he previosly worked for rainbow as a track designer for mva games) he said that there is something really special about mx simulator, you just need to get "over the hump". i challenge you fixer to try and get over the hump! trust me you wont regret it!!

heres some quick mx simulator tips,  turn arcade phisics off, you must use a controller ( i use an xbox 360), set the setting to these:


my controller setup: steering left stick, clutch LB, rear brake LT, gas RT, front brake RB, sit A, gear up x gear down B.

and also pull back on the upramps (this will stop you endoing). just do an easy track like eskwanbee park at first, then do dallas sx. dont worry about bike setups leave them stock for now too.

cheers al167

[JamieT]

Haha, mcm1 without the fun   I agree with you on that!

This game has too many bike setup parameters, and too much "play" within the settings, imo. It feels like I need a degree in physics & engineering to setup the bike....

What I haven't figured out with this game, is how to "ride it from the rear" as they say   If it's a simulator, then I feel I should be able to lean the bike over, give it some power to kick the back end out, and "drift" around the corner. Anyone found that this is possible?

I can't see how you can have a bike simulator either, with just one steering stick. I feel they should adopt what reflex did with the 2 sticks, for leaning and steering...but actually make it real, unlike reflex, so that you can do real countersteering...

Personally, I don't think there will ever be a true MX Sim, as there are not enough buttons on a game pad to make it so.
Think of the movements in real life in motocross,

Body;
Lean left / right
Lean forward / back
Sit Up /down

Bike;
Lean left / right
Steer left / right

You know? 3 different types of left / right... Then to this, add your front/back brake buttons, gears, clutch, gas etc.  It's just too much!!! lol


Thoughts?........

[VRT_JPRLisbon_]

Mcm1 without the fun and Mx simulator , just for who doesn't like real mx bike races ahaha

Scroll , scroll and scroll between the pics 

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.158380894174720.31946.158379577508185&type=3

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.158379864174823.31945.158379577508185&type=3

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.158509947495148.31984.158379577508185&type=3

[Fixer]

I didn't want to start an argument about the merits of MX sim but I can tell you I've been riding dirt bikes for over 40 years and if mx sim feels like riding to you then it must be your brain is much bigger than mine and can determine balance without the use of your vestibular system....

[VRT_JPRLisbon_]

My brain is the same size as your , are you saying that you cant balance something looking at a screen ? dont come with bs's 

To start 70 stability , then with 50 stab is possible ride well without fall to the side.
And just use your steering after the bike is running (half of a sec after) , this is to dont have the inverted steering when stopped , im used to it but with this tip you dont have it.
Use a gamepad , To throttle and brakes use progressive controls like the triggers or the sticks , dont use buttons , to steer is good use a stick too but use buttons is ok too.

Is possible play well with joystick , the only problem is that the throttle is a button , its not good because its all or nothing , as a real bike you need be able to apply the amount of gas that you want , the same for the breaks.
Oh and other thing , click TAB of your keyboard to change view.

[Fixer]

the problem for me is: by the time I "see" I'm off balance then I'm already screwed and fall, which is different than balance on a real bike where you feel what's happening with your balance and you react without thinking about it

[JamieT]

I've been playing mxs for the past couple of days since I read this thread.

It seems very strange to have to lean the bike into the corner, and then have to steer the opposite way in the corner to stop yourself falling over... People say this is "balancing", and you have to "balance" the bike around a corner... This is not what happens in real life. Yes you do have to balance the bike, but your brain does not function like the controls in this game. Balance is the first thing you ever learn on a bike, and once you get your "balance" you never lose that ability in your brain.

I re-call a well known saying in England, "Its just like riding a bike"

Which means it's something that your brain will never forget how to do. Which includes going around corners on a bike... Your brain does not think, "ooh left abit, right abit, no too much..." etc.

I'm all for simulation games, I love realism, but why does MXS make something so easy, into something so difficult?

The game is playable for me on arcade physics, because the bike straightens up when you let go of the steering. This type of steering mechanic is present in all racing games ive ever played, because it transfers naturally from your brain. Why go against this convention?