Rainbow Studios Track Contest

[mike_mccue]

Riesenberg448,
I've made more than a dozen MVA tracks that I thought were very nicely made, but I found the gameplay to be horrendous. I've never released anything because I found the whole experience of developing content for MVA unenjoyable.

1) The only time I got the A.I. to be competitive was with a banked oval track design that had no elevation changes. If there was any elevation gain the A.I. just blew out and I tried applying lots of friction (mapping) and laying inside curve AI splines etc etc etc.
2) The online play was completely overwhelmed by the GUI experience. It takes too long time to search out a User Track and it's impossibly difficult to beta test with others who may or may not have adequately updated their files. I had a great support test group for MCM2 but we ended up completely discouraged trying to test MVA tracks.

I don't think any amount of mods, hacks, or customization on the communities part would have gotten past this basic problem... MVA is NO FUN TO PLAY.

In all sincerity, If you really want to demonstrate that there is continued interest in user editable mods for MX gaming you might seriously consider a MCM2 revival contest.

It's unlikely that you are familiar my work in MCM2, but I contributed many creative idea solutions that the guys here at TD implemented as mods, I made many well crafted tracks, and close to a hundred carefully skinned lo-poly models. Here's a link to my MCM2 stuff:

http://www.harmoniccycle.com/hc/3d-g-mcm2-intro.htm

I'm considering the contest but I found MVA to be a heartfelt disappointment. I'm not sure if I can maintain an enthusiasm to assemble a track for your review.


best regards,
mike_mccue

[Fixer]

I think Mike hit the nail on the head.
There is very very little of the "fun factor" > both playing the game and making tracks for MVA.

[MDx_chris774]

I made about 6 tracks for MVA, and released them, the reason that i gave up, making MVA tracks, was mainly because of placing objects.
and after testing the tracks, having to go back in the editor, and find the
objects floating. i have made many MCM2 Tracks. and still making tracks
for mcm2, Which are uploaded at MDx_RACING.
http://mdxracing.com/news.php
like Mike said , consider a revival  MCM2 track contest.
all the Guys here, have done a grand job creating add on's for
MCM2 track creators and making life much much easier to create tracks.

thanks MDx_chris774

[Garasaki]

I made about 6 tracks for MVA, and released them, the reason that i gave up, making MVA tracks, was mainly because of placing objects.
and after testing the tracks, having to go back in the editor, and find the
objects floating.

This is indeed a frustrating problem, but it is also a known problem, and if you follow a particular workflow, it can be avoided.

The objects float when you go to the activitys tab then back to any other tab.  All you need the activitys tab for is creating your spline and AI tuning.  So, if you create your spline, and tune the AI, THEN start your object placement, you will never run into that problem.

[Bulldog]

I made about 6 tracks for MVA, and released them, the reason that i gave up, making MVA tracks, was mainly because of placing objects.
and after testing the tracks, having to go back in the editor, and find the
objects floating.

This is indeed a frustrating problem, but it is also a known problem, and if you follow a particular workflow, it can be avoided.

The objects float when you go to the activitys tab then back to any other tab.  All you need the activitys tab for is creating your spline and AI tuning.  So, if you create your spline, and tune the AI, THEN start your object placement, you will never run into that problem.

Or it could be fixed with a patch.  See...that is the biggest problem with MVA.  It was ported and they fixed a couple of bugs and then just said....Sorry, it is what it is, we aren't fixing any more bugs.  As far as I can tell THQ has no intention of ever making or supporting any more PC MX games.  Which makes me wonder why anyone who likes PC gaming for the reason PC games are so great would support this contest or purchase THQ products.

Sorry to continue to be negative about this contest but I see it as nothing more than a marketing ploy to get PC MX gamers to buy their new console only games.  And I will not be buying another THQ product until they prove that they actually give a rip about their PC gaming customers.

[AUS_Twisted]

I made about 6 tracks for MVA, and released them, the reason that i gave up, making MVA tracks, was mainly because of placing objects.
and after testing the tracks, having to go back in the editor, and find the
objects floating.

This is indeed a frustrating problem, but it is also a known problem, and if you follow a particular workflow, it can be avoided.

The objects float when you go to the activitys tab then back to any other tab.  All you need the activitys tab for is creating your spline and AI tuning.  So, if you create your spline, and tune the AI, THEN start your object placement, you will never run into that problem.

So how do you tune the AI once objects are placed? (refix all object placement, that would need to be done several times lol) there's always some tuning needed once you place objects especially on the tighter tracks

I never bothered much with track making for MVA and lost interest in the whole thing pretty quick like most did (it was a frustrating experience to say the least), I've moved on to other things now like photography http://flickr.com/photos/10831485@N06/ so it doesn't bother me. But it would be nice to see a kick ass new MX game for PC like MCM2 was.

[ElDiablo (Paul)]

The AI tuning on MVA is so difficult that it discouraged a lot of people in my opinion. Pile that on top of all the other things and it made things tough to say the least. Only very dedicated creators even bothered making tracks for MVA because of all of the 'hoops' that you've got to jump through to make a decent track for MVA. I'm not sure why it's so tough to tune the AI on MVA either. When I was working on ATV Offroad Fury 4 at Climax, the AI were so fast that we had to slow them down to keep them from blowing away the player(s). I have never gotten the AI to be competitive on any of my tracks for MVA.

However I did get RaceX to tune the AI on my arenacross track replica ( http://www.motocrossgamingforums.com/index.php?act=dscript&CODE=showdetails&f_id=48 ) so that they were pretty competitive.

Personally the thing that I liked the most about MVA was the way the bike handled. I went from being a slow guy in MCM2 to being fairly fast in MVA...so you can bet I liked that.

Having said that...I also really liked MTX Mototrax racing online (when I didn't get any lag)...I was REALLY fast in that game. Especially with the SX tracks!

We definitely need a new addiction/game though.

Personally I think that some really SMART developer needs to integrate PC editing/world building for next generation consoles! Being able to design and test creations on your computer and then transfer them to your console to try out is exactly how the work-flow goes in a game studio. You'd find me with a pile of coffee cups and pop cans,sitting behind my computer screen for 12 hours a day easily!

That's a plan that I think would work for ANY genre game. But they won't do it...it might make the game last as long as MCM2 did...and that would be HORRIBLE. They want you to buy next year's game too.

[Fixer]

Games have progressed so far in the almost 8 years since MCM2 came out but MVA has only incremental improvements to it's foundation- along with losing some of the very things that made the game so popular in the first place. I'd say they need to start over from the ground up and get something new started instead of taking something that was good and trying to squeeze even more life out of it.

I have no problem buying a new version of a game, every year or so, if the developer actually makes worthwhile improvements, listens to the community and incorporates that back into the game but after seeing what's possible with truly next gen titles I seriously don't see how they think they can attract people into buying something that's evolved backwards since it's beginning in many key areas and has forgot one of the most important things- it's supposed to be fun not a pain in the rear just to play.

Not playing either MCM2 or MVA I decided to give them both a spin again, MVA lasted about 5 mins before everything I hated about that game made me leave-again
MCM2 while not having the "great" physics of MVA was actually more fun to play and I played several nostalgic races on some old favorites eventually though both games fall short in the:
IT''S NOW- OCT-2007 I want more than this in a game. I want a game that looks like it was made in 2007 not some warmed over 10 year old piece of crap.

[Riesenberg448]

Again, my thoughts, not Rainbows.

Sorry I haven't been back to reply in awhile guys.  First of all, yes I remember your stuff from McM2 Mike.  I know who all of you guys are what all of you mean to the community. 

Next, about the contest, since it was the reason for starting the thread.  The contest is not what you could call a marketing ploy, it was something thought up by myself and Mike (MX45) as a way to help give back to the community that helped both of us land our jobs.  After compiling some basic guidlines we then approached Rainbow about helping with the prizes.  I am proud to say they were as excited as we were.

As far as MVA vs. McM2.  That debate has been going on, well since MVA came out for the PC.  I just recently revisited mcm2 myself, and yes that game still rocks.  I love how it is a challenge to go fast.  There really isn't much a patch can do to fix that for MVA.  However, I do think the SIM physics helped create a bit more realistic feeling physics, and closer to McM2.

Paul, you are onto something w. the PC editing and transfering to counsels.  If someone pulls that off I'd be all over it for sure.

As far as objects floating, it's definitely a bug, and a pain in the arse.  I built tracks for MVA and went through it as well.  I feel your pain there, unfortunately we've been extremely busy with our new project.  I don't know where to begin to write a patch to fix it.  I can do a bit more encouraging.

That's all for now.

[ElDiablo (Paul)]

Paul, you are onto something w. the PC editing and transfering to counsels.  If someone pulls that off I'd be all over it for sure.

So far the only way to do something like that is to have a dev. kit and compiling software for your PC. However...what the compiler does editors like MCM2's and MVA's also do. So I think all they'd need is a good coder to make a release version of the editor (like MVA). They could sell the software for a premium PLUS they'd be selling consoles and game-system discs. The current way what the developer gets stops at unit sales and merchandising. If they were to impliment something like what I suggested, they'd get the PC guys to buy consoles and console games AND their editing software.

But they won't do it...that might make too much sense! lmao

By the way...for people wondering what a Dev. Kit costs...the PS3's are unbelievably high, Xbox 360's are more affordable. To buy a Wii Dev Kit it costs about $2000. The other ones I'd have posted the costs...but I can't remember for sure. I remember that the PS3's are 5 figures! Xbox360's are mid 4 figures I think. I could be totally off though.

[Fixer]

Some people might want to go that route but I don't want to play games on consoles- period, I'll leave that for the kids.

Honestly I don't see why anyone would want to do that - unless they were getting paid.

More hoops to jump through= even less fun. Besides the fact that many of us have no interest in console gaming to start with.

The only way we are going to see a decent MX game for PC is if "someone" other than the current Rainbow makes it. 

There are some killer games coming out for the PC and I guess I'll just be stuck buying and playing those.

[JvdL]

First of all, Thanks for organising this contest. I don't see it as promotion for Untamed however. Atleast, it does not work like that for me. Not if there wont be a PC version of the game. I see it more as a pat on the back for our support as community(PC).

Secondly.. To go lean a bit off topic here as I seen most people talking about Untamed here.

By the way...for people wondering what a Dev. Kit costs...the PS3's are unbelievably high, Xbox 360's are more affordable. To buy a Wii Dev Kit it costs about $2000. The other ones I'd have posted the costs...but I can't remember for sure. I remember that the PS3's are 5 figures! Xbox360's are mid 4 figures I think. I could be totally off though.

Even if they would develop a console game that we can edit the content of ourselves by having a developer console. Why on earth would you pay that much for a developers console just to do that? Not to mention, how will someone that has no interest in editing the game (thus not having a developers console), be able to make use of these edits done by other people? It makes no sense to me what so ever.

I think being able to add up to a game content by the player of the game itself should not be seen as a luxery to the gamer, but a luxery to the game's developer. Afterall, having us edit and contribute to MCM2 and MVA, is what is keeping those games alive.

By having the gamer creating new things for the game (levels, characters, or whatever you might have in your head.). He/She contributes to a community. A community wich only will grow bigger and bigger when more gamers contribute to it, or visit the community to download contributions.

Why is this interesting for a game developing team then? Simple, if you have a community eating out of you hand while you only have given them a single cookie. You WILL be sure about the community buying a copy of a newer version of that same game that the developer will release.

MX vs ATV Untamed will be similiar to MX Unleashed, MTX Mototrax by the looks of it now. It will be fun to play for a month or 2/3. Then you'll be bored with it simply because you ran out of content. Riding the same track a million of times and knowing where every little bump is, will become boring very easily.

The only reason why MX vs ATV unleashed is quite popular, is because the community made it what it is today. The same can be said about Motocross Madness 2.

Bottomline being, I will not buy a console just for this one game. I'll stick to MX vs ATV Unleashed for the PC if there isn't a PC version for Untamed avaible. Simply because the content of MX vs ATV Unleashed (for the PC) will never get boring as there is atleast one new good track (not talking about the 5 minute tracks) to download each week. And me being able to contribute with that what I like to it. Something I will not be able to do with a console game (Untamed).

Appolegies for the rant. But that is my opinion.

John.

PS. If you want a game to be supported as much as other games in your game line, listen to/play with the community you have. And not turning your back on them by cutting off a large group of people that contribute/are part of this same community. That goes for any game developer.

[ElDiablo (Paul)]

John what I'm suggesting is that the developer make software for your existing PC so that you wouldn't need to buy a Dev. Kit. In other words...if you had a Dev. Kit and could do some coding, you could already mod just about any game out there. But that would require a substantial cash outlay as I explained above.

[MX45]

Wow, a million things going on in this thread. All good conversation though, so thanks everyone for being mature.

Ok, I'm not a spokes person for rainbow in anyway, I'm jsut a grunt. But I'm loud and stuborn, and I use those qualities to try and influence things towards a direction all our core mcm and mva gamers would like.
As for MVA:PC, Beenox did the port. It was entirely in their hands, we gave them feedback but they decided how to handle that feedback.
As for what goes on at Rainbow, we always want what you want. We got alot of moto gamers as well as real moto racers here all with a ton of talent. Unfortunately, like any buisiness, the guys in the suits and ties make the final calls, in our case it comes from THQ.
What we are trying to do is build up the community again, pretty much from the ground up. Which is the reason for the track contest. This contest is from the hearts of individuals at rainbow, not the corporation. Its just the first step of many that we hope will give faith back to our community.

Mike, I would love to see a track from you! Good to see you're even around.
Paul, different dev kits vary in price, but $20,000 is a good average.

[iLLo]

Best way to build the community back up would be to come out with a fresh new product made especially for PC. :/

[MDx_Wayne]

"What we are trying to do is build up the community again, pretty much from the ground up. Which is the reason for the track contest..."

Rebuilding the community is an admiral task, I'd love to see it happen, but doing so with the very game that segmented it in the first place is moronic.  MVA will never be the game to build a community on, it is just a crappy effort, it doesn't matter who ported it or who was responsible, you all had your name on it and it was total junk.  Kiss the communtiy goodbye fellas, trying to use MVA to rebuild it just tells the story as to what the future holds for us.  I hope that I am wrong, but it does not appear as though those who have the power to save it, have the means.

It would not be the first enity that accountants have destoyed with fiscal responsibility.

[MX45]

I have no response.
Not being politically correct, but because you're right.
Anyway, we're trying.

[VRT_RIDEBLUE]

I feel your pain Mike, I have been a tech for Ford for 24 years, and I dont design or build the cars, but it sure is my fault when they break 

[Fixer]

I feel your pain Mike, I have been a tech for Ford for 24 years, and I dont design or build the cars, but it sure is my fault when they break 

Really, the customers only blame you > if your the last one to work on it... LOL

[ElDiablo (Paul)]

Strange place to come and register simply to ask a question about something so 'off-topic'!

As an moderator...I was tempted to remove your post because it doesn't pertain to the topic. BUT...as a frustrated web developer...I'm tempted to help you find the answer that your looking for. So...in the spirit of helping...(and since this topic is pretty well dead for over 2 years now) I'll tell you to go to www.kchost.net and sign up for the forums and make a post (preferrably a private message) to "The Juke" and POLITELY and with the UTMOST respect state your question as clearly as you can and MAYBE he'll help you out. His real name is Rick and he is an advanced web developer. Even ran the I.T. department at Sprint here in K.C. at one time I believe.

Good luck!