Alternative Browsers

[AheadBMX_6]

Here is a list of extensions I've found useful.

Gmail Compose (if you have an account hehe)

I just downloaded this since I have a gmail account now. I found that you can right click and send images and it pops up gmail. Is that all it does or is there more? Be nice to have a gmail button I could click that would take me straight to my gmail account. Any ideas?

[VMX_101]

Adds a context menu link for opening a GMail compose window when clicking on mailto: links and text email addresses. Based on G-Mailto specs.

[MotoX395]

Denny, you where exactly the one I was thinking about when I talked about people who've showed their love for css

Your site is also very appealing design wise, good job on it

[AMA_DirtTwister]

You've made clear enough that nothing will make you change away from IE and I respect that (in a way of respecting people's rights to choice).

It's not that nothing will make me change.  It's just that I haven't had a reason to.  If and when one comes along I'll surely change.  I think it's a good discussion though.

1. MS do NOT set the standards. It has some kind of standard on its own, below standards for others but I guess IE standards will do for you.

Actually they do.  The set the standards in a couple of ways.  Standards aren't necessarily set by a standards body.  When it comes to standards MS has submitted many improvements they made to standards bodies and they have been adopted.  I would have to do some research to list specifics.  I hate to be in the position of defending Microsoft.

4. But it does not do that for me and for the rest of the world that know that Css is for more then coloring text and giving some padding and margin here and there.

This is concerning how well IE handles CSS files.  The reality is that there are many companies that do their business each day without any problems with the way that IE handles CSS files.  There will always be those that are concerned about following the standards to the letter and constantly keeping up to date.  In the real world it's important that the product is stable and updates are kept to a minimum in order to do business.  We still have NT on desktops where I work.  We are going through a process to upgrade them all to XP.  The reality is that the people still using NT can do their job just fine.  There is nothing that we do at work that they can't do because they are using NT.  For the longest time Visual Studio C++ didn't meet the standards for C++.   I still don't know if it completely does.  It has never once affected me, ever.

5. Yes Firefox do render pages in another order. But Firefox have been proven by tests to load pages faster then MSIE in tuned condition. In stock condition (not touching the about:config file and such) it is a tie tough. And the test computers did NOT have any add-ons or such installed either.

What if I tuned everything that IE does?  I compare the way they install.  If it takes one or two seconds who cares anyway.

7. What do you need windows update for? Do you need it for mcm2?

No.  I use it to keep Windows, Office, Visual Studio, and the SDK's up to date.

9. First of that's just a waste of space down there and secondly Firefox warns you if your about to close a window with multiple tabs in it.

Mine doesn't waste any space.  I use Auto-Hide.  I also tear off the quicklaunch and auto-hide at the top of the screen.  I then put an address bar on the right of that quick launch.  That gives me a quick way to launch web pages and/or enter new url's.  When I do IE opens up.

10. Perhaps not, but seriously. You install service packs and toolbars instead of just using a better browser?

I would install these no matter what browser I'm using.  I don't know how many times I have updated FireFox.  It's on my system and nothing has compelled me to use it as my default.

11. Like having your absolute favourite bookmarks in a row in the toolbar as in the pic I've attached in the bottom of this post.

That's a nice feature that they have borrowed from IE.  In IE it's called Links.  Microsoft is nice enough to populate it for you with some useless stuff.  I bring mine down so it fills the entire width of the browser.  I then remove all the links that Microsoft puts there.  You then can add to it by dragging down the url that you are at and dropping it on the toolbar.  If you add more than will fit the additional ones are access by clicking on the two ">>" symbols on the right of the toolbar.

Here is a screen pic of my desktop with IE open and quicklaunch dropped down at the top.  In the IE window you can see above my Google Toolbar is the Links toolbar.  Links is actually just a subdirectory in the Favorites folder.  It's been there forever.

http://dirttwister.com/images/ie_links.jpg

12. IE has so many flaws to fill up that twice as many updates wouldn't be enough.

That just shows how popular it is.  With that many people testing it (and hating it) it's easy to find flaws.   The bottom line is none of the flaws it has impacts me or stops me from doing the things that I want to or need to do.

Bruce

[MotoX395]

Could you tell me what would be a good reason to witch for you? I'm just curious.


I will just refer to a famous expression here then:

If everybody jumped out from a cliff, would you do that too?


I'm surprised that such a skilled computer user like you can chose to just take things as they come.

1:

People in the poor parts of Asia and Africa sets the standards of living too? They are the majority of the world so that has to be the acceptable standard of living, on a soil floor that is.

I can see why you leaved out statement number 2 since it was nothing that would contribute to this discussion but why did you leave out an answered to my question on number 3?

4:

But the problem is not about following standards and such down to the letter. No one does and no one can, because of IE. The problem is that many features such as fixed positioned layers and backgrounds together with alpha transparency and box models (can be fixed with some Css hacks and so but it is not perfect still) have to be leaved out of web design. It's like having a bike that only can turn in one direction.

Also I wouldn't call IE a solid or stable. In fact it is the buggiest browser that I've ever used. And yes I do update IE and I know what I'm doing too. It is just that it is so easy to make IE crash, it actually doesn't take more then a line of html code:

Code Select Expand

<STYLE>@;/*
Or one that only works for IE 5.5 and below:

Code Select Expand

<input type>

But when I talk buggy I talk about it freezing from time to time or just simply crash because it had nothing better to do at the moment.

5:

That test WAS with IE tuned to. Although I don't have a clue about how you tune IE myself.

6:

No answer or comment to comment/answer on.

7:

Windows update does of course not work in anything else then IE. Why would they want you to be able to do that? But no one have asked you to throw away IE either, you can't for that matter. But just because windows update doesn't work with anything else then IE then you have to use IE all the time? I can surely tell that it is exactly what MS want.

8:

No answer or comment to comment/answer on.

9:

Good for you then, sounds like one of those 1-2 second saving features that you said no one cares about to me tough.

10:

You know, that is actually cool of you to have it installed at least. One thing I like with Firefox is that I don't have to be afraid of being clumsy. I surf sites a lot and it happens that I end up on some bogus site like everyone does from time to time. (And no I don't search yahoo for "omg warez I haxxor you!!!oneoneone111!!" ). I don't have to be afraid that it will install something to my computer without letting me know. Firewalls and antivirus in all honour, they work but not always. Also I'm not stupid. I know how to search and get rid of these things but it happened one time that it got so bad that I had to reformat. That is not fun at all and that was one time to many.

11:

As for the bookmarks I didn't realise that, I've actually used that in the past when I was still using IE but I guess it was to long ago for me to remember. Also the name "links" may've caused me not to remember that as a bookmark future. But everything that makes "myie2" so good is practically borrowed from Mozilla, opera and safari together with others. So I still think that Mozilla is good.

12:

Mozilla has a user base with WAY more experienced users tough (percentage wise). Most Mozilla users now days is developers of some kind concerning the web, the feedback Mozilla get, together with their pure dedication for this open source project, that makes Mozilla updates superior to other browsers updates. I have followed Mozilla (not only Firebird or as it now is called, Firefox... also other projects of theirs). I can say that every single update has brought new features and bug fixes that are worth mentioning. IE only keeps on trying to fill up all the wholes in their browser.


I too think this is learning and pretty fun discussion we've got going. I've learnt some new things about IE. Like the long lost for me, bookmark toolbar feature.

My goal is not to convert anyone to some evil cult tough, my goal is just to have a debate that learns me and hopefully someone else new things about unexplored areas.


/Simon

Btw: If IE didn't come pre-installed with windows, which browser would you chose then and why (assuming MS wouldn't pull their nasty tricks about that you have to use IE for a lot of their features and sites)?

[AMA_DirtTwister]

I'm losing track.

3: My answer to 3 is that it is not an issue to me if PNG's display with proper transparency.  Keep in mind that I realize that tranparency is a big issue in Longhorn and it's interface.  I'm sure that PNG files will display properly in the future.  Maybe by then I will care.

4: I find IE extremely stable.  I don't lock up or blow up.  When IE first came out way back in Windows 98 days the opposite was true.  If you have the updates on your NT level box, your registry is clean and correct, and all COM based programs are properly installed/configured then your windows/IE should be very stable.  Mine is.

5: Tuning IE is tuning Windows.  Remember IE isn't really a program but a shell that makes use of functionality built into windows.  Upgrading IE upgrades windows.  Do you ever surf the net from within Windows Explorer? Have you ever built custom pages for Windows Explorer? (they are just web pages)  Have you ever written a program that let's you surf or present web pages.  It's extremely simple in Windows to do that.

6. I didn't comment on six because yes I do like extensions and addons.  I like ones that make my job/life easier.

10: With the proper settings in IE you don't have to worry either.

12: IE will be updated with Longhorn (and I'm sure well before that also).

If IE didn't come pre-installed I would still use IE by default.  Mainly because of it's tight integration with Windows and applications on Windows.

It's hard to say what it would take for me to switch.  Here are a few.

1. If IE gets in the way of me doing stuff.
2. If IE was causing problems on my system.
3. If IE was difficult to use.
4. If someone created a product that had features that I found extremely useful and IE didn't have them also.
5. If someone created a product that worked just like IE and was better.

I am always on the lookout for things that make it easier to do my job and to allow me to do things faster.  So far that is IE.

Here's a link that to an MS article that pretty much describes how I feel about standards. 

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dndude/html/dude03262001.asp

I'll poke around to see if I can find some articles about MS's direction.

Bruce

[MotoX395]

You state a lot of good points there. I will try to answer with some just as good

3: My answer to 3 is that it is not an issue to me if PNG's display with proper transparency.  Keep in mind that I realize that tranparency is a big issue in Longhorn and it's interface.  I'm sure that PNG files will display properly in the future.  Maybe by then I will care.

I have no reason of not believing that the version of IE that'll come with Longhorn won't support PNG images. MS may have an un-modern browser (compatibility wise with the "newer" things) but they are not stupid and even less bad. So yeah by then it will support PNG images for sure. Good point.

The thing is tough, that PNG images on win/IE has both gamma and transparency problems/disability. That makes the file pointless as stated earlier. If people WOULD use PNG images for what it was good at then it would be a problem for you. For example if they would use a PNG to overlay images and text to create a nice effect, then you would not see anything. The thing is that IE walks its own way and we all have to step aside for it even tough everything else would be twice as good.

4: I find IE extremely stable.  I don't lock up or blow up.  When IE first came out way back in Windows 98 days the opposite was true.  If you have the updates on your NT level box, your registry is clean and correct, and all COM based programs are properly installed/configured then your windows/IE should be very stable.  Mine is.

I'm most sure that my computer is properly setup and configured. It is not so that I can't mouse over the IE icon without making the CPU get toasted. But I have had 0 Firefox crashes this month and at least 2-3 IE crashes/hang ups in the past few months. Yet I only use IE for testing purpose. If my system was the unstable part, wouldn't Firefox crash as much too then?

5: Tuning IE is tuning Windows.  Remember IE isn't really a program but a shell that makes use of functionality built into windows.  Upgrading IE upgrades windows.  Do you ever surf the net from within Windows Explorer? Have you ever built custom pages for Windows Explorer? (they are just web pages)  Have you ever written a program that let's you surf or present web pages.  It's extremely simple in Windows to do that.

I trust you on that and it seams to be correct. As said I don't know what they really did with any of the browsers. All I know is that Firefox got extremely positive test results. It was a test performed by non Mozilla or Microsoft people nor Apple or Opera people (It was not only Firefox and IE that was tested of course).

As for the talk about Windows Explorer I don't really understand the point of that. No I do not surf the net using Windows Explorer. I'd be glad if you could explain to me what you mean tough.

6. I didn't comment on six because yes I do like extensions and addons.  I like ones that make my job/life easier.

Hehe. Reason accepted, we all like things that make our life easier.

10: With the proper settings in IE you don't have to worry either.

Yeah I can figure that. The only problem is that when I used IE for browsing I was not as interested in these kinds of things as I am today, therefore I did not take notice of things such as settings. Firefox is secure in stock condition tough, that I like. You don't have to know anything about computers to browse safe with Firefox but even I find settings in IE to be confusing. Perhaps I'm just IE dyslectic tough.

12: IE will be updated with Longhorn (and I'm sure well before that also).

IE will not be compatibility updated (Css support or PNG support or just new features and such...). Updates to fix security holes and such comes at a pretty much daily basis as we both know but they have stated themselves that the existing versions of IE will not get developed any further. They have also stated that IE 7 will not be available for any windows version under longhorn. So basically it will take several years before the user base of IE 7 is big enough that you actually can design with it in mind.

If IE didn't come pre-installed I would still use IE by default.  Mainly because of it's tight integration with Windows and applications on Windows.

But if you think about it, Internet Explorer is actually not a product developed by Microsoft. It is just that Microsoft owns them, hence why it comes pre-installed with all windows versions now days. If they didn't have them pre-installed then I don't think they would own them either because they'd not get anything out of it.

So most likely IE would not be a Microsoft product.

IF it now was so anyway, that MS just happened to chose not to have IE pre-installed, it would still not be the same. As both of us know IE is actually built into Windows and therefore it's close integration with it. If you'd pick IE out of the core of Windows then it would start slower and not be as close integrated with Windows either.

It's hard to say what it would take for me to switch.  Here are a few.

1. If IE gets in the way of me doing stuff.

Well that is most likely not likely. Since it hasn't done so far then why would it in the future?

2. If IE was causing problems on my system.

Same answer as above...

3. If IE was difficult to use.

Once again, not likely since you already use it and have for such long time.

4. If someone created a product that had features that I found extremely useful and IE didn't have them also.

I know that Mozilla has a ton of plug-ins/add-ons that isn't available for IE but in stock condition I'm unsure about that, except for the tabs but you've already said you don't use those anyway.

5. If someone created a product that worked just like IE and was better.

Mozilla, Opera, Safari? I think they work just like IE but better, fill me in on what doesn't work like IE.

I am always on the lookout for things that make it easier to do my job and to allow me to do things faster.  So far that is IE.

I think you feel that way because you're both used to IE and that it is comfortable to keep things as it is when they work out good/okey. What exactly (except for windows update) is harder with Mozilla Firefox?

Here's a link that to an MS article that pretty much describes how I feel about standards. 

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dndude/html/dude03262001.asp

I'll answer using a quote form that article:

The Internet Explorer team has put a great deal of effort into providing fast and stable implementations of 100 percent of CSS 1 and 100 percent of DOM level 1 with this release. With the emergence of other browser versions over the last year supporting these standards, this is clearly a step forward in interoperability of browsers.

*Applause* Good work Microsoft, just a shame that "100% Css 1" already is "outdated". Any good browser shall support Css 1, Css 2 and parts of Css 3. "100% Css 1" was great, 2 years ago. That is roughly 40 years in web years.

They do try but they are just so long after their time. Nothing said in that article can help that IMO.



It is obvious that you and I have different relations with the web. We put different weight in what's important or not. But even tough MS wouldn't do anything to harm a computer they do try to save IE's rep until the new version comes out. IE 7 will for them be a fresh start. Past versions have been to corrupted and they know that very much


This is for me a very educational debate/discussion

/Simon.

[Bunny]

My goodness, if I was older and had more free time, I might have actually read all of that stuff...seems like a good discussion though.

[AMA_DirtTwister]

*Applause* Good work Microsoft, just a shame that "100% Css 1" already is "outdated". Any good browser shall support Css 1, Css 2 and parts of Css 3. "100% Css 1" was great, 2 years ago. That is roughly 40 years in web years.

Did you check out the date of that article?  It's from March 2001, three and half years ago.  I wouldn't be surprised to see an IE 6.5 being released or some super Service Pack for Internet Explorer.  I think Longhorn is going to take a little too long.



3. I learned a long time ago that the masses don't migrate to what is best.  As a programmer you have to go to where the people are.  The people are with Windows and that means that most people use IE.  Because of that I haven't really run into any issues using IE.  I have run into issues using other browsers.  I like how IE is integrated with Windows and will open other documents within IE.  I like having Word, Excel, etc. open up within the IE window.  I like being able to write a few lines of VBScript or a few lines of VB to display web pages.  It's very easy to create a restricted browser for a Kiosk kind of application using IE as an object within your application.  If Mozilla was smart they would make there apps scriptable and able to be used as reuseable objects in the same way that IE is able to be used.  If they extended them to fully replace IE then I might use them.  So far they are only replace a tiny piece of the total IE package.

4. Crashes over the last two months: 0 Firefox    0 IE.


5. Windows Explorer is web enabled.  If you open Windows Explorer and just type in a url (ie. www.google.com) the web page will display in the right pane. 

It is possible to customize Windows Explorer using .htt files, which are basically web pages.  Microsoft is moving away from this but it was first implemented in Windows 98.  It has been somewhat disabled in XP SP 1, Win 2k SP3, and Windows Server 2003.  It is possible to re-enable it and make quite useful customizations to Windows Explorer and your desktop.  Just search on the web for folder.htt and you'll see what I mean.  Microsoft had to start moving away from it because people were abusing it to take over peoples machines.  Do you remember "Active Desktop" that's what made it all work.

6. I think IE will have to be updated, because I don't think they will be able to get Longhorn out for quite a while and they are already starting to release some Longhorn features (XP SP2 is an example).


I don't use IE because I'm used to it or comfortable with it.  Way back when I used to use Netscape on Windows 3.1.  Our company used Netscape also.  Once IE was released I started to use it and moved away from Netscape.  If you understand COM and the power of the interfaces that the applications make available you'll understand why I won't be leaving IE anytime soon. 

When I browse the list of objects and controls available to me.  I don't see any from Mozilla or Firefox.  I do see a Netscape Address book connector, but that's it. 

Bruce

[MotoX395]

I can't answer this right now because it is midnight and I'm tired and should hit the hay but as for IE's possible update I'd not put any money on it.
I've been taking parts in several petitions about it and also been a part of smaller mails with questions about it. From what I've gained they are not having the plans on something like it. If they do then no one will be more happy then me. I won't use IE of course but it would help my life a lot.

The part Mozilla "replace" is the browser part. That is the part that I together with most people care about. Microsoft will not allow any apps to just move in and exchange IE to something else. Nor do I think it is possible.

As for the date of the post I missed that but my point still stands. That is still how far IE is today even tough at writing moment it was good.

Once again we use the browsers for completely different things so I can see why the opinions are so splited about it.
Microsoft is a super company, their direction is towards the $$$ and that is true. Sure you can say that they go for the big crowds of people knowing blindly nothing about computers but that is where the money is so it is the same difference.
Mozilla is an organization (hence the .org) and work for the good. Mozilla is not a money making product. They get donations and some money from things such as shirts and similar, but all that is puten down directly into development of their products. Their main goal is NOT to conquer the world and show their evil self, their goal is to make the web a better and mote beautiful place for those who want to. They don't force the product into someone's computer.

Sorry if I sound extra confusing but I'm way too tired to actually even try to have a somewhat intelligent conversation.

[AMA_DirtTwister]

Actually it is possible to replace IE.  IE has well documented interfaces.  The whole idea behind COM was to have well defined interfaces.  If a program supports the same interface as another than it can replace that other program.

It certainly would be a lot of work though and MS is moving away from COM with the way they implemented interaces in .NET while still keeping a way to interoperate between them.  They are really constantly building a big goo ball (sorry to get technical) trying to move to a better way while having the old way still work.

I just try to keep up and keep it simple.

Bruce

[51]

Used IE forever...then switched to Firefox for about a year or so...now i use Opera (full version). It's nice.

[51]

has anyone tried MAXTHON aka MYIE2?

[MotoX395]

Opera, Safari and Mozilla/Mozilla Firefox is pretty much the same deal all around. They all support what should be supported and they are secure and nice. Any of them will do pretty much, I just enjoy Firefox because it is free but I use Opera too so I know that it's a great browser.

MyIE2/Maxthon is just a way to give IE all those features that REAL modern browsers have. The problem is that they do it in a bad way. They aren't as well thought out as in other browsers and it also looks horribly. Mouse gestures and such aren't as customizable as in other browsers for example.

Basically the idea behind MyIE2 is good and very much welcome if you ask me but it isn't as well done as it should and could have been. The default interface is both clumsy and ugly too imo.

Better then MSIE tough, no doubt.



I have a friend who recently switched to Mozilla, the big browser pack that is, not Firefox. Before he did tough, I asked him what browser he used:

  -   I use Internet Explorer!
  -   You know that Internet Explorer is a very outdated browser tough? Have you tried a modern browser like opera or Mozilla?
  -   Well no I haven't! I use a utility that makes IE look just like Mozilla!
  -   ...

He did simply not understand the goal of alternative browsers, he thought the main and focused on difference was pure cosmetic.

After I explained this for him he switched immediately.

If what interest and appeals to you is the cosmetic parts then why not switch to the real thing right away?
If the cosmetic part is your concern tough, then the best solution would be to get your alternative browser and customize it with skins and such to make it look like MSIE but still be based on the Gecko engine rather then Trident.



Finally I'd like to post an article myself that is written only some months ago.
http://mozillanews.org/?article_date=2004-06-21+02-03-58

And to quote the first comment there:

Why are they sticking with that crappy old "Trident" engine? Surely it would take much effort on their part
to port the "Tasman" engine that was made originally for use in IE5.x for Mac, over to IE for Windows?
The fact is that the "Tasman" engine is 1000x better than "Trident" ever was, and ever will be.

It's very unlikely that MS will use Gecko in IE though, if ever. Although there nowt stopping them!

[AMA_DirtTwister]

That's a good read and really points out what has happened to Microsoft and we all knew it would.  They are becoming too big and are now becoming the dinosaur that IBM used to be.   It is bogged down by it's own compatibility issues and future plans that are way too big to implement quickly.  There recent focus (well over a year actually) on security has also bogged them down.  When they make changes now they have to go through a big QA process to think how it can be hacked and do some defensive programming.

This actually opens up some opportunity for others.  We are seeing this in the growing popularity of the alternative browsers.  The shame is that no one is making money off it except MS.

Bruce

[MotoX395]

Exactly! This is also why I do not think it is Microsoft's evil plan nor fault that their browser is where it is today at some aspects, if they would (and they will) get the chance then they will take care of everything anyone can wish for. It is just a matter of time.

[MotoX395]

Someone here talked about Firefox 1.0 PR RC... Earlier today Mozilla officially released Firefox 1.0 PR. Just thought I should inform anyone interested.

http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/

[MotoX395]

Also just for the record. It was some talk about Css designing being mainstream or not. Take a look at ESPN, their site is designed with Css, doesn't that show how mainstream Css is getting today?

Sorry tough, I shall not bump this up again. Just thought I should add.

[VMX_101]

Firefox Gmail Notifier

A Gmail notifier that integrates into the browser's user interface.

FireFox Gmail Notifier

[MotoX395]

Yeah I've been having that plug-in installed for some days but I haven't found it useful since I have it in the system tray already, neat none the less tough.

A site which I link to and through in my signature called "spreadfirefox" (http://www.spreadfirefox.com/) had a goal to get 1 million unique downloads of the newest release of Firefox within 10 days. With 6 days to go they have already smashed through the 1 million barrier and it won't stop there... really good news imo

So denny, have any new great plug-in finds to share? hehe