A discussion of IE vs the world came up in the 1st XP-SP2 thread. I figured I would start a new thread to discuss alternative browsers to IE. My own personal feeling is that I'm perfectly happy with IE and I have been less than enthused with any other browser that I've tried. I'm interested in hearing what people like about other browsers (not IE bashing), but real features that are missing in IE. The first thing to realize is that even if you aren't using IE to browse the web the functionality of it is within Windows and you are using it everytime you use your desktop. IE is really a simple frontend to windows functions which is evident by the size of IE (89k) and the tabbed browser MyIE2/Maxthon (595k) .
If want to discuss what standards IE doesn't work with please give some specfic examples (ie. web pages that demonstrate the problem).
Thanks,
Bruce
Is there something equivalent to the Google Toolbar for Firefox?
Bruce
ive been using firefox for 3 or 4 months now and i prefer it, its bookmarks is better layed out and easyer to "scroll" through,
pages load faster for me im on a 576 kbps connection. downloads seem to have better options, the overall look and feel to it is more to MY likeing,
simply Zero adaware or popups, with IE i would have to clean adaware each week. and the permanent clicking sound you get when popups are stopped with IE, you dont get with Firefox.
i guess its all down to that good ol "IMHO" stuff but i just find it ......... nicer.
oh and it has a built in Google search bar on the same "bar as the http:// bar so it save veiwing space with less bars.
Ian.
Ive been using firefox for a few days now, and it seems to work better... no popups and better download options... as said.
Although some pages dosent work properly, specieally those at microsoft, such as windows update. And my site does work properly either :'( wich means that i have some work ahead of me now... Im using Macromedia Dreamwever to build my site and the use of 'behaviors' on my site only works in IE...
Btw I resently restored the site via ftp after i had formated my drive and now all the files locally is in big case letters and the ones on the site is in small case letters... And sadly the server is case sensitivy so my links get all messed up and when I upload files it gets there as a new file... So my question is if someone knows a easy way to fix this without renaming the files all by hand (theres 1200 of them). Got a bit of topic there sorry, you could just PM me if you feel like it ;) Thanks...
The Google toolbar has several options that have become a necessity to me. A few of them are:
1. Highlighter. It highlights all the search words.
2. Word Finder. Each search word becomes a button that you can use to skip through the page, even when you are far removed from the page that you started from.
3. Autofill. There are several fields that you can pre-populate and then click on the Auto-fill button when you are on a form that contains those fields. (ie. Name, address, phone number, e-mail, etc.). The fields that are eligible to be filled are highlighted.
4. Page Info - Cached snapshot of page. Displays the way the page was crawled. Backwards links - Displaying what pages link to the page you are viewing. Translate into English.
I'd love similar functionality when I'm using Linux.
Bruce
Although Firefox is a great program to use imo, for some webstie where you have already downloaded plug-ins for on IE, you will have to re-download those so mozilla can install those on it's browser.
I've been writing a litle article that I will post in this thread right the second it is done. atm it is around 3000 words so it will be quite a read I think but hopefulley it will be worth it. I will provide lots of examples, true statements and info together with screenshots.
As for google toolbar you don't actualy need it since most of it is built into firefox already but if you do insist then I'll find the link... I don't have it on the hand right now tough.
I'll get back with my article'ish post as fast as I can. :)
Oh dear. Well, Firefox gets my vote anyways.
Watch his post take up a full page :)
i use opera
Opera's ok unless you have the full version, otherwise you get that advertisement on it so I hear.
I heard the google toolbar for windows calls home or something very simillar. Anyways, the google bar in Firefox is great. You can even download new search engines. But I have never tried it. I think IE and Firefox are both about even. It just comes down to little personal preferences and nit picks.
I like IE because Simon likes Firefox 8)
Ok. I'm proof reading my big post atm but until then I have a tip for those who do use firefox already.
- Type about:config in the address field.
- Set the value of network.http.pipelining to "true".
- Set the value of network.http.pipelining.maxrequests to "100".
- Set the value of network.http.proxy.pipelining to "true"
- Set the value of nglayout.initialpaint.delay to "0"
If the line "nglayout.initialpaint.delay" is missing (the last step) then simply right click anywhere in the config window and choose New > Integer, from there input the text "nglayout.initialpaint.delay" (without the quotes) and set the delay to 0 when it asks you to.
Now just restart firefox and it should fly in speed compared to before. Results may vary but everyone I've heard about doing this have had a positive effect. For me this very site loads faster then it used to do actually, even tough it already loaded so fast for me that it would be hard to notice a difference.
Thanks for that little tweak. I just set it up, I will let you know if it helps :)
Edit//
Ok what I have noticed in the last 5 minutes or so is, TD loads a lot quicker for me, almost instantly now. Some other forums seem to take a fraction longer to load BUT instead of loading each post it pauses and then the whole page appears. overall faster then before. :D
Thats great... now I'll post my longer post I've spent the day proof readin to keep it clean from the most typical motox typos :)
Why fix what already works? (You think)Let me first start out by saying that I have nothing against Microsoft and what Microsoft does. I only have something against many of Microsoft's products which are proven to be bad in many kinds of ways. This is of course not an act of evil from Microsoft and I know that, it is just a matter of product quality.
Important note:I will several times use a site called "csszengarden" as an object of examples. www.csszengarden.com is the link to the page and all info about it exists there but I will take it in short here.
The csszengarden project is based on Css designs. The site only uses 1 single xhtml file. It looks like this; http://www.csszengarden.com/zengarden-sample.html. Pretty basic huh?
Then it uses several hundreds of Css files like this one; http://www.csszengarden.com/zengarden-sample.css.If you use MSIE it will download that so you have to view it in a text program like notepad or WordPad or anything similar, if you use Mozilla you will be able to view the document in the browser.
When those two files come together it makes the basic html file (http://www.csszengarden.com/zengarden-sample.html) to look like this http://www.csszengarden.com/ or http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=025%2F025%2Ecss or why not http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=019%2F019%2Ecss. A full list of official Css designs for the csszengarden project is to find here; http://www.mezzoblue.com/zengarden/alldesigns/official/. All designs can be found here; http://www.mezzoblue.com/zengarden/alldesigns/.
So what is all the fuzz about...? If you look at the source for all the designs you will see that the source looks EXACTLY the same, actually the html file never changes at all. It is just the Css document that is changed to make the page appear differently. Csszengarden don't use any scripts or hacks in the xhtml so what it does is proving the power of Css but also exposing the problems with bad browsers such as MSIE.
Microsoft Internet Explorer does not fully support PNG image files. The PNG format would mean a big leap in development of web pages if it wasn't for the fact that Microsoft Internet Explorer (which I will from now on refer to as MSIE) does not fully support this wonderful image format.
To have the ability to fully use PNG images would mean that:
- Semi transparent images where possible
- Better image compression then other "quality" image formats such as jpg
- Better image quality then jpg
Now wouldn't that be a bless for the web?
Here I provide an example of a PNG using design; http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=100%2F100%2Ecss. Take a look at the flower in the top right corner, that's our PNG object to focus on.
(http://simon.hostburst.com/misc/tridentvsgecko01.jpg)
As you can see MSIE Shows us the wonders of a jagged edge and a full black shadow. Any gecko based browser tough will show the beauty of a smooth edge on the flower and a semi transparent shadow that really takes out a new dimension of it.
This is because the engine MSIE use, also known as Trident, does a horrible job with the PNG file format. Gecko, the engine that runs Mozilla and other good browsers, on the other side, does this as good as it can get.
Gecko 1, Trident nil!
The only actual downside about Firefox/Other recommended browser is that they aren't built into the system. From the view of security this is a bad thing of course. MSIE has direct contact with the system and can drag the entire computer down the drain if you are unlucky. But from a speed aspect this is a good thing. MSIE starts faster then any alternate browser on windows simply because it is always running actually. If Mozilla would've been built into windows just as MSIE is then you could have been expecting superb speeds but as it is in the horrible reality they will only tie because of MSIE's advantage.
Gecko 1, Trident (MSIE on Windows) 1.
Cascading Style Sheets, the only true love of web development. Cascading Style Sheets (which I will refer to as Css from now on) is the best thing to happen the World Wide Web since graphical supporting browsers came to us. It gives you the ability to take the design out of the content and vise versa. It cleans up the codes and it definitely reduces file sizes and loading times. Gecko is all about support for these kinds of things. MSIE tough, shows how horribly outdated the Trident engine really is. I can list many Css attributes that Trident simply can't understand at all. I can also list several that Trident misunderstands or just understands it in a very horrible way.
I will once again state an example; http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=057%2F057%2Ecss. Take a look at the menu. In Gecko it's a beautiful semi transparent drop down menu but in Trident it has to be a plainer menu witch isn't drop down at all. Why? This is because Trident doesn't understand simple Css. Trident only allows the :hover pseudo-class to be applied to <a> tags. This means that it can only be applied to a link element but not a layer or other page element. So to make a long story short, Css and (x)html drop downs is still just a dream on the web because of Trident.
(http://simon.hostburst.com/misc/tridentvsgecko02thumb.jpg) (http://simon.hostburst.com/misc/tridentvsgecko02.jpg)
"Wait a minute here! I surf the web all the time and I see drop downs as often as I eat banana cakes and I do love banana cakes!"
Yes, drop downs are nothing that Trident can't handle, if you use scripts that is. But scripts are a thing from the past, the only big reason we still use them so much is because of Trident. The most usual things done with scripts could be done without it in Gecko. Scripts Increase the size of every page and also the load time. The most horrible fact tough, is that they actually make a browser lag sometimes. It sounds like crazy talk that a silly script can make a just as silly browser to lag but every time you move the mouse on that drop down or what ever the script may do, then the computer has to do at least twice as many calculations as with a browser that simply has the function built in from the start.
Once again this shows how bad Trident really is and also how un-functional it is.
Gecko 2, Trident 1.
Mainstream or underground? Kissing or hugging? Firefox/other alternate browser are not something you use as a proof of your rage over MSIE or Microsoft! What is all this fuzz about "web standards" then? Really, who do decide the standards? Aren't standards what people use?
There is a need for standards, they aren't here to make our life's hard, they are here to make the browser AND web developer's life's easy.
Think about it, if everyone in a country would drive on either side of the road they wanted, how would that look? If all car developers placed the steering wheel on either side they wanted on top of that, how would that look once again? We have laws about these kinds of things just because nothing would work without them. For way to long the web have been pretty much lawless when it comes to standards (witch can be called laws even tough you wont be punished for not obeying them).
Mozilla doesn't stand for standards. All Mozilla does is following them, just as you and me would drive on the correct side of the road (hopefully).
http://w3.org/ This is the site you shall look at, read from and listen to. It is up to each and everyone but w3.org is acting as the book of law for most web developers out there.
That is the standard, which is what I talk about. MSIE have no big problems with those standards at all. If everyone would use the proper code for the correct thing then all sites would be readable with all the browsers. This does not mean that they would look good in all browsers tough, that takes a little more of engagement but once that is done you would have the perfect code.
This argument is not really pro or con against any browser, just a statement to explain why some sites don't manage to look good in all browsers while some do. I promise you that MSIE is the browser that gets something wrong, and then while the one coding the page is trying to fix that problem it brakes up in good browsers instead. It is not necessary but it happens for those with lack of experience.
I used to think just as I beg you all not to think myself but I've learnt to look at it from an objective view instead. I could throw out statements such as:
"How can you say that the alternate browsers are using standards while the mainstream browsers out there use MSIE? Isn't it better to adapt to MSIE instead of trying to turn the world around to use another browser when most people out there don't even know they exist at all?"
This is of course something I had to eat a dozen of times later on when I discovered how hard and not to say poor it was to create websites with MSIE in mind (witch is a requirement, always... You shall always make sure that the website can be accessed from anything and anywhere, even a cell phone if you're feeling hardcore about it.
The good, the bad, the untouched! Firefox together with all other alternative browsers are something that we could call "virgin browsers". They haven't been penetrated by hackers and add-warez yet together with all the other filth the web has to offer for a price of a phone call.
Mozilla is not superior to other browsers in security. It does have a little more to offer then MSIE but not much actually. The big reason is that Mozilla and Co is unexplored. Most likely will they stay like that long enough for the developers to fill in any holes that can pop up but no browser is waterproof. MSIE is based on an age old engine, so is the rest of MSIE. It is built up of a practically stone age old source code.
In other words they who make this very trash of the web don't even try to break Mozilla and Co up yet because most users do use MSIE still and MSIE is so much easier to take advantage of.
Gecko 3, Trident 1.
Mozilla is Open Source witch most of us do know what it means. If you know what you do then you can also contribute to the Mozilla project and perhaps help the web a bit closer towards a not so dark future.
This is not a big stand point for a reason to switch but I think it is a good thing and worth to mention.
Some quick "point-outs" should be made perhaps. The reason the exe file of MSIE is so small is because everything MSIE needs and is all about is built into windows. To have that as an argument is to me the same as saying that MS Paint is better then all the alternate paint programs out there just because of the fact that it is smaller in files size.
MyIE2/Maxthon is something nasty in my eyes. It takes a lot of good ideas from Mozilla and other browsers and puts it to something meant to be like MSIE in a better version. If you can get yourself to download that then I see no reason why not just to download the "real deal" so to say.
The white sheep in the black sheep family. Now that is backwards but in this case, oh so true. MSIE is not just thumbs down. There is one browser that is worth mentioning and also raising above the rest. Let me introduce you to MSIE 5.5 Mac.
MSIE 5.5 for Mac does a lot of the things that "MSIE Win" does bad good. It actually acts completely different in several scenarios. But most of us use PC's here so I will not go in any deeper on this.
Did you know that one of the heads in the security section of Microsoft use Mozilla to browse himself? That has to mean something.
Oh man just look at all the extensions and skins! Firefox together with other Mozilla products has a huge library of well developed and tested plug-ins featured on Mozilla's own plug-ins and extension page. Same for skins. http://update.mozilla.org/?application=firefox
The total library of these is so much larger tough but those are the ones recommended. If you would search the web you could find as many as you could dream of. Once again, if you have an idea and skill then you can make a plug-in yourself. If it is good enough perhaps it will end up on that very site.
Options and Your own choices. There is practically nothing in Firefox that isn't customizable. Toolbars and futures, you name it, you can play around with all no matter if you will need a plug-in for it or not (usually not). Firefox futures such neat and actually obvious futures such as a hiding scrollbar. If the page isn't high enough to have a scrollbar then it hides instead and gives you a tiny bit more space sideways in the browser.
http://myie2.com/html_en/tour/02mousegesture.htm, now that's a future I use all the time but in Firefox of course. http://update.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=39&vid=615 is the plug-in. What this does better tough is that you customize your own movements and even if you want to you can write new actions that tells the browser what it shall do when a gesture is preformed (even tough the default library of actions is big enough for most of us I can tell).
Being a "nitpicker" doesn't mean that the arguments is useless. Some things that could be considered as nitpicking is the following:
- Larger browsing space. The browser window in firefox is (with the default toolbars on) larger then most popular browsers out there.
- Nice futures as "dict something". You just type dict + something in the search field and it looks it up at dictionary.com (once again this is a customizable future too).
- Firefox use the best library of shortcut you can find (http://www.texturizer.net/firefox/keyboard.html). You can customize that to of course.
- Straight forward layout and futures. Firefox comes with nothing more then what you need to browse, then you chose to install skins and plug-ins for your liking and what you need. Installing a skin or a plug-in is not a matter of downloading, it is a matter of clicking a button on the plug-in/skin you want here http://update.mozilla.org/?application=firefox and it will install it for you.
- Easy installation. When you install Firefox you get the option to have Firefox to automatically import all your MSIE bookmarks into Firefox too. It takes just moments to get started with Firefox really.
- Simple download manager. I know most of you use download managers that gives you a lot more futures then the stock built in one but isn't it a nice future to be informed when all downloads is complete or to be able to see where they all ended up at. Perhaps you just want to be able to look at the status of the download(s). If you want more futures then find a plug-in for it.
So what will you chose? Will you chose the standard that your grandma decided for you? Or will you perhaps decide the standards chosen by those who lead the web forward?
It is actually up to every one of us if we want to be able to surf the web faster, see even more beautiful sites and have them to be more accessible at the same time. We, you and I chose what the future of the web will be. Mozilla, Opera, Apple or Microsoft, they may be able to develop and suggest standards to us. But if we don't use them then they will stop there.
After all, what crazy person would continue to develop something that no one uses anyway?
This is my suggestion. Leave all biased thoughts behind and get all the alternate browsers you know about, try them for, let's say a day each. If you are sure by then that you honestly don't like either one of them, then no one can force you not to use your old browser. If you like another browser then keep that installed, you will always have MSIE to fall back to if you feel uncomfortable or if a site doesn't work (the zone for example). I have 4 browsers installed myself. I use 3 of them to try out web pages I create and one of them to just browse like right now (Firefox).
Related links (reads of interests):http://mozilla.org/products/firefox/
http://mozilla.org/
http://switch2firefox.com/
http://browsehappy.com/
http://apple.com/safari/
http://opera.com/
http://microsoft.com/ie/
http://www.webbedenvironments.com/2004/07/top-ten-resons-to-switch-to-firefox.php
http://www.michaelhanscom.com/eclecticism/2004/05/its_not_my_faul.html
http://soreeyes.org/archives/001077.html
http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/249/
http://s91881962.onlinehome.us/index.php?p=81
http://dirttwister.com/smf/index.php?topic=186.0
http://slate.msn.com/id/2103152/ <- site owned by Microsoft discussing flaws of IE and benefits of Firefox.
I shortened this down a lot just before posting it simply because it was to much and it could be said with less words so I did (or at least gave it a honest try. :))
I think I've shortened it down enough at least... It shouldn't take to long to read trough... If you don't like the colors then do as I do for longer reads... copy the text and paste it in a word processor like WordPad or ms word...
I had to add this excellent sample of PNG images and what they could be used for:
http://wow.airax.net/index2.php Navigate to the "Photolog"...
Very ugly code and pretty ugly site design in my opinion but that's not the point. In a GOOD and MODERN browser you'll see a nice effect where the content fades in and away as you scroll. In MSIE you will see a horrible thing. Two grey-white images that just cut the content off... Congratulations MSIE, you've done it again ^_^
Sorry for 4 double posting btw... :o
No comment? I felt we had such a great debate going on... Did I kill it? :-X
wow... 5 posts in a row...that's really stupid, I should have edited them instead but that wont help me now will it... :P
no reply...... cos im only half way through reading it, not a big reader me. lol
ill read it properly when i get back from my Birthday weekend away ;D
Ian.
Cool man, Thanks for atleast reading a bit of it :) ;)
I think that the article was very informative Simon. You covered all the aspects of what this topic was about. It shows just how much different IE is from the other browsers. Maybe one day, IE will upgrade to a new engine, but until then..... We have a few nice alternatives. IE... Firefox. ;)
IE will be upgraded... IE 7 will most likely be into the competition up with the top browsers once again (compatibility wise, not user wise, since it already is on top there). The only downside is that IE 7 won't be released for a LONG time. By the next release of windows to be exact. And just for the pleasure of it, it will just be able for that version of windows. So basically to get IE 7 once it hits the market the only option is to cough up the dough so to speak. :P
Thanks a lot for the feedback tough. :)
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/complexspiral/demo.html How pretty isn't that!? That is if you use a modern browser. If you use an outdated browser that doesn't even fully support Css1 *cough MSIE cough* (yet Css3 is on the drawing board) then it wont be all that pretty I can tell... hehe ;)
Well I dunno whats up with my firefox, but it keeps coming up with something saying "Error launching browser window: no XBL binding for browser" which really sucks. and I have tried reinstalling it with no luck :-\
Do you have the latest version? (0.9) If not, uninstall the version you're using now and download the latest version, maybe that will help...
<me hints>0.9.3 is the latest release ;)</me hints>
If nothing helps then please contribute and inform Mozilla about it so they can fix it and most likely help you with what to do. :)
You may also want to try and start firefox in "safe-mode". If you have the original install paths then it should be accessed through; Start > Programs > Mozilla Firefox > Mozilla Firefox (Safe Mode).
If you have installed any plug-ins lately that might be why and then you open firefox in safe mode and remove it. As simple as that. :)
ok then, yea I did install a plugin, but I have already gone thru and deleted and still no luck.
What exactly is the difference between safe mode and normal? because when i open safe mode sometimes i can open the normal one after.
(http://img78.exs.cx/img78/6750/firefox.jpg)
Firefox 1.0 PR RC
What's new in 1.0 Release?
New features
* 250231 - Find toolbar.
* 244078 - Live Bookmarks (RSS feed integration)*.
* New keyboard shortcuts
o 213377 - Pressing Esc now stops image animations.
o 246719 - Link modifiers now work in many places in the browser UI. For example, Ctrl+clicking the Home button opens your home page in a new tab.
o 208035 - [Linux] Pressing Backspace key now goes back.
* 225944, 247960 - Add folder pane to Bookmark Manager (screenshot)*.
* 211023 - "Sort by name" on context menus for bookmarks folders.
* 239241 - Add password manager mode to display saved passwords.
* 218694 - Implement master password UI.
* 217664 - Ability to use same proxy for all protocols.
* 166395 - Need ability to override navigator.appName and navigator.appVersion from prefs.js.
* 173569 - Clicking in focused textbox should open autocomplete results.
* Neil Turner: More on new Firefox features describes these new features in more depth.
Major improvements
* 174265, 173762, 228862 - Favicons for bookmarks often wrong and forgotten after shutdown.
* Firefox update and Extension update improvements
o Firefox now checks for updates every 24 hours. (Firefox still only checks for extension updates every 7 days.)
o 251473 - Allow extension authors to remotely bump maxVersion for a given extension version to prevent users from having to redownload an identical new version when they upgrade Firefox where the only change is a newer maxVersion.
* Pop-up blocking improvements
o 176564 - Can now open blocked popups.
o Yellow information bar for blocked pop-ups in addition to status bar icon*. This information bar can be disabled.
* Security improvements
o 241705 - If a site not in your whitelist attempts to install software, a yellow information bar now appears instead of a dialog*. This prevents malicious sites from repeatedly popping up a software installation dialog until you accept. The initial whitelist contains only update.mozilla.org.
o 22183 - Make the address bar visible in all pop-up windows to prevent spoofing. (See also 252811.)
o 245406 - Display domain in status bar for secure sites.
o 244025 - For secure sites, show lock icon in address bar (in addition to showing it in the status bar) and make address bar yellow*.
o 157354 - Hide user:pass in the address bar. (Usernames and passwords in URLs come before the hostname, which is confusing and has been used in widespread phishing/spoofing attacks.)
* Alternate stylesheet support improvements
o The status bar icon now only appears when the page actually has alternate stylesheets.
o 216424 - You can now select alternate stylesheets using the keyboard (View > Page Style).
o 253332 - The Page Style menu (but not the status bar menu) has a "No Style" option that removes all styles, including ones from style attributes and other HTML attributes.
* 253046 - New missing plugin finder (screenshots).
* The "Web Features" options panel has been reorganized.
* 232089 - The "Add bookmarks" dialog should not default to the last folder you added a bookmark to.
* 242586 - Add Amazon, Dictionary.com, eBay, and Yahoo to the search bar (in addition to Google). You can still add engines from Mycroft.
* 237727 - When installing on top of an existing Firefox installation, the installer now deletes old files program files without nuking the entire directory from orbit.
* 177996 - [Linux] Better Start Script for Firefox - When invoking Firefox with an instance already running, pass a URL to the running instance (if one was given) or tell the running instance to open a new window.
* 257405 - [Linux] Use GTK2 native keybindings for input and textarea. This means Firefox no longer uses Emacs keybindings in text fields unless you set an pref in GTK2.
New web developer features
* 248549 - In quirks mode, add undetected document.all support.
* 256932 - In quirks mode, expose elements by their name/id in the global scope.
* 28998 - Proxy: Web Proxy Auto-Discovery Protocol (WPAD).
* 250666 - Implement the npruntime plugin scriptability API.
* 237586 - SPNEGO+NTLM support (implement negotiateauth using SSPI for Windows).
* 231529 - Optionally enable unprompted NTLM authentication.
Major bug fixes
* 229100 - Shift+Tab is broken in the search bar.
* 232770 - Ctrl+Tab to switch tabs should work even when the address bar has focus.
* 246078 - URLs from other apps result in two Firefox windows or a window and an error dialog.
* 101190 - Firefox incorrectly blocks requested popups while the page is loading.
* 231393 - Tab URL does not persist on bad links if tabs switched.
* 213186 - Change "Cookies are delicious delicacies." to something more informative.
* 217120 - Back button does not restore scroll position on eBay.
* 201040 - Unable to view page source of the page that uses IDN.
* 125276 - Printing causes squished images on second page; replicates images on first page.
* 192577 - [Windows] URL bar drop-down does not collapse on second click on down-arrow.
* 248423 - [Windows] Make config.trim_on_minimize work again.
* 229062 - [Windows] Clicking link in Download Notification does not show Download Manager.
* 228977 - [Windows] Firefox gets wrong desktop folder for downloading.
* 239358 - [Linux] Reverse DNS lookups are degrading performance on Fedora Core 2.
Security hole fixes
* Details will appear on mozilla.org's Known Vulnerabilities in Mozilla page
Grab it here>>>
http://ftp35.newaol.com/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/0.10rc/Firefox%20Setup%201.0PRrc.exe
Nice writeup.
PNG transparencies and obscure style sheet options are nice things for Firefox to support. I'm sure if doing those things actually becomes popular that IE will support them also.
For now I can't give up my Google toolbar. :)
Bruce
What are you talking about? Css is what everyone into design use now days. I don't talk about the general person drawing some stuff in Photoshop and then exporting it with the slice tool to make some sucky tables. I talk about people loving web design, not for the money because for most of us that isn't much. I talk about pure love for it, just as we all blindly love mx.
I'll list some sites that use Css and nothing but Css to design the site (perhaps a tiny bit of flash on some), the html only stands for one single thing, content!
http://mozilla.org/ <- duh!
http://www.w3.org/ <- duh again!
http://mezzoblue.com/
http://alistapart.com/
http://cssvault.com/gallery.php <- that is a list on its own, click on a date and check out all sites on each date, all of them use nothing but Css for the design.
http://stopdesign.com/
http://nundroo.com/
http://justwatchthesky.com/
http://ibeginwithanidea.com/
http://csszengarden.com/ <- that is also a list of inspirational Css designs witch I explained in my big ass post.
http://kevinleitch.co.uk/
http://alazanto.org/
http://buyecco.com/
This above is only a personal list of favourite sites I go to OR favourite designs. Take that and multiply it with about 20000. That is how popular Css is for us... the web folks (yes it may sound stuck up but I include myself as one of them nerds). Practically every single website that is well made these days (and stretching back a year ago or even longer if you wish) is designed with Css, NOT table hacks!
It is generally a question about what corner or spot of the web you move around in tough. For example. Most people here go to sites like, mcmfactory for example. The coding of that site is aged and outdated since long time. That is nothing unique to that site tough. I still have to see a mcm2 site that is well coded. I know at least one that is made with Cuss for the design but the code is not semantics and don't make it full justice but I have to say that I'm happy to see that at least one made the move in this community and went into the now, away from the past of nested tables.
If you are a very general surfer who don't just surf around on game fan sites and such then you would be surprised about how many that use Cuss for the design, sure not everyone is hardcore and do it all the way but at least for a big piece of the site they use Cuss.
I'm not doing this for my blind love for Mozilla or my blind hate for IE. I'm doing this to make my own life easier, because it works against me and 100000 other modern web coders out there. IE makes everything that should be so easy, so hard. Unless it makes something impossible then it makes it incredibly hard even for someone who should know.
Finally I have to say: If someone out there has a modem or at least anything but cable or higher, a connection where you actually wait for the html to load and not only the images. You could spend 50% less time on the computer waiting for a website/page to load and spend that on the track or somewhere else instead. That is if everyone would code things the way it should be. The major thing holding it back tough, is IE. People think that just because of IE's stupid way to handle most Css attributes then it isn't worth it but they totally misunderstands the point of Css then.
The point of Css is to split the design and content up, you shall only have to load a design once for a website, and then all you shall have to do is reload the content.
Quote from: AMA_DirtTwister on September 12, 2004, 06:37:38 PM
I'm sure if doing those things actually becomes popular that IE will support them also.
IE will support it all fully with IE7, they have promised that. The only cache is that you have to wait for and then buy the upcoming release of windows and that will take some time.
I'm not saying that you're looking away from facts, I know you aren't that kind of person. But Microsoft does NOT care about support for web standards or anything like it. All they care about is having the most users on their browser. They will not support Css in IE7 because they think that is good and that people will be happy with that. They do it because more and more sites use to advanced Css for IE to handle and people will soon realise that IE isn't the best choice of a browser and leave for other alternatives. That is the only and will also remain as the only reason.
Do you believe me if I say that IE would NOT have the kind of status it has today if it wasn't pre-installed with windows? Apples computers that use OS X (Panther) comes with a browser named Safari if I'm correct. That is a browser up to pair with Mozilla and Opera 7.x. There is a MSIE available for Mac too but why do you think people doesn't use that as much as Safari. If IE is so good then why don't people run of and install MSIE the first thing they do?
Give it a thought at least. :)
Quote from: AMA_DirtTwister on September 12, 2004, 06:37:38 PM
For now I can't give up my Google toolbar. :)
What are the futures you want? If they aren't included in Firefox by default I can promise you that there is a plug-in (takes some seconds to install) that gives you that future.
By the way, did you read through all of my larger post?
Quote from: MotoX395 on September 12, 2004, 04:07:50 PM<me hints>0.9.3 is the latest release ;)</me hints>
Quote from: motoman on September 12, 2004, 06:02:08 PMFirefox 1.0 PR RC
Public releases is what someone who already has problems should stick to :P
Although I did not think they where going to nod out that one just yet. I got to look into that I guess.
All you have to do is use the Google toolbar for about 30 seconds and you'll see the features that I want. When I search using the google toolbar each word that I search on becomes a button on the toolbar that I can now use to skip through the page. Each word can be highlighted using a different color. These features work even when you are way beyond the initial page that was the search result that got you there. I can display information about that page including what pages link to it and the cached snapshot of the page that I'm looking at. Fields that are elibigle to be autofilled will be highlighted and by clicking on Autofill they will be filled. I can then restrict that search to the specific site of the page that I'm looking at. It also blocks pop-ups but that isn't as important as it used to be.
I wasn't saying anything against CSS. I was just pointing out that IE would be made to support the more obscure aspects of it, if they were to become more popular. CSS does work in IE and is heavily used by many.
Bruce
http://update.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=33 Google toolbar for Mozilla Firefox. I installed and tested it and it works superb even tough it is nothing that I will use myself in the future. At least I don't think so. ;)
If you won't give Firefox a try after this then I assume the problem isn't functionality, more like a person who don't want to switch. That is nothing wrong. Many people feel like that, I used to do so too actually until I was forced to start using it for web site testing, then I was stuck. ;)
I use Opera, and i like it a lot. My wife tried it and 'can't get used to it' even though it has gestures (the first browser to adopt them i think) a killer browsing aid whenever i am forced back to another browser i find i'm wiggling the cursor wildly and nothing is happening. I think my wife is a typical IE user, mostly unaware of security problems IE might have but it's there on her desktop and what she's used to because it came installed with windows - isn't that what that big DOJ court case was about, MS trying to dominate the web by setting (not following) standards to give it a commercial edge because it pre-installed IE?
I use the free version of Opera and all of the toolbars are customizable so as to make the ad bar small enough not to be a problem for me, i really need to get a license. :) It seems to have all the features listed for firefox even though i was not aware of a lot of them, i still must have used them from time to time. The thing that really bugs me is when sites are coded for IE only, or in the case of Macromedias site where it actually tests for Opera and won't let you in unless you use IE or Netscape ... huh?? Most times i can still use it just have to read between the lines - often literally.
Finally isn't the point of standards that everyone follows all of them and not to just implement the ones that you want to or seem popular at any one point in time? Otherwise only the popular ones will get used since they are the only ones available and therefore none of the other features will ever become popular - seems to be a bit of circular logic there. :)
Laurie
I have FireFox, Netscape, and Opera installed on my Desktop (I use Multi-IE on my Pocket PC).
The toolbar is a good start. It works a little differently and I don't see an autofill option as a button on the toolbar. It will be nice to have it under Linux.
The main reason I haven't switched is that I haven't seen any reason to.
You say you don't think you would use the Google Toolbar. If you search Google and you try the toolbar for a few days, I don't think you will stop using it.
Bruce
Opera is a superb browser at the new releases (7.x) but I'm too annoyed by the banner even tough it's possible to make it blend in good. I'm also not all that keen on the overall layout of it. Else a browser I recommend.
I have Firefox, IE and Opera. As stated before I just use the second and the last one to look at sites in for testing. Firefox is my browsing browser.
If (I'll pick the rough parts here):
- Standards compatibility
- Security
- Modern futures (But that doesn't say that it don't work with sites that is badly coded. Most of the time it does.)
- PNG Support
- Css 1, Css 2 and some Css3 support
- Faster (If tuned correctly)
- Great library of skins and Extensions that is installed in a second pretty much
all futures included or available for Firefox is what any browser today have or can have (actually even more) - Larger browsing window
- Tabbed browsing (an idea that have been seen in many browsers and browser add-ons now days but I can ensure you that they where not the first one *cough myie2*)
- Built in pop-up blocker (I've been using Mozilla browsers for more then a year and never had a single pop up with it).
- Better bookmark futures
- Updated often for new awesome futures and security fixes (even tough non have been exploited yet, witch only is positive)
isn't enough for you then I don't think you'll ever move on from IE. :P
I have to add since I was checking something out that Laurie asked in a different thread, I've actually been reading and posting to this thread from IE 6, Netscape 7.2, Firefox .9, and now Multi-IE 3.0 (Pocket PC).
Bruce
I'll run through the list with my comments:
- Standards compatibility - IE is compatible enough for me and this is something that will constantly improve (MS will keep setting trends and standards for many years to come.)
- Security - I consider IE very secure with flexible features that can burn you if you have options set inappropriately I like how Windows update works and I like the option of installing things like Flash very cleanly without the download, navigate to the file, install scenerio that FireFox likes you to do
- Modern futures (But that doesn't say that it don't work with sites that is badly coded. Most of the time it does.) - I'm assuming you mean features. - IE supports all kinds of new/modern features and it will be constantly upgraded.
- PNG Support - IE supports PNG files. Does it support them to your liking? No. To mine? Yes
- Css 1, Css 2 and some Css3 support - So far IE supports all the CSS features that I have used and the vendors that provide the products that my company uses.
- Faster (If tuned correctly) - Haven't seen any of them faster yet. Some have the appearance of being slightly faster by rendering in a different order. I would venture a guess that most people that have a problem with the speed of IE have addons installed that slow it down or have a fundamental problem with their workstation configuration.
- Great library of skins and Extensions that is installed in a second pretty much - I have no interest in skins for my browser
- all futures included or available for Firefox is what any browser today have or can have (actually even more) - Does Windows Update work with it?
- Larger browsing window - Than what? It's larger than Full Screen?
- Tabbed browsing (an idea that have been seen in many browsers and browser add-ons now days but I can ensure you that they where not the first one *cough myie2*) - Not much of interest to me. I accomplish a similar thing with stacked icons on my taskbar. If I close a window I know I'm not closing a bunch of other pages that I'm looking at.
- Built in pop-up blocker (I've been using Mozilla browsers for more then a year and never had a single pop up with it). - I use Google toolbar and with XP SP2 I'm not sure it even matters any more.
- Better bookmark futures - Like what?
- Updated often for new awesome futures and security fixes (even tough non have been exploited yet, witch only is positive) - Like any good program should. IE is actually updated more often than I would like.
Bruce
You've made clear enough that nothing will make you change away from IE and I respect that (in a way of respecting people's rights to choice).
I will one last time answer tough... hopefully the last time at least:
1. MS do NOT set the standards. It has some kind of standard on its own, below standards for others but I guess IE standards will do for you.
2. I don't care for windows update out of reasons I don't need to take in this thread. If that now is such a pain I can tell you that it is only the flash plug-in that you need to do this with. Anything else you install will be the way I assume you like.
3. Yes, sorry I wrote that wrong. IE DO support PNG images but not alpha transparency witch is the whole point of it pretty much. EVERY other browser that is updated since 2001 does. Don't you think that is a tad silly?
4. But it does not do that for me and for the rest of the world that know that Css is for more then coloring text and giving some padding and margin here and there.
5. Yes Firefox do render pages in another order. But Firefox have been proven by tests to load pages faster then MSIE in tuned condition. In stock condition (not touching the about:config file and such) it is a tie tough. And the test computers did NOT have any add-ons or such installed either.
6. But since you like google toolbar so much then you have to like extensions. It's all about the futures.
7. What do you need windows update for? Do you need it for mcm2?
8. No, Larger then other browsers (once again when none of them have been modified with).
9. First of that's just a waste of space down there and secondly Firefox warns you if your about to close a window with multiple tabs in it.
10. Perhaps not, but seriously. You install service packs and toolbars instead of just using a better browser?
11. Like having your absolute favourite bookmarks in a row in the toolbar as in the pic I've attached in the bottom of this post.
12. IE has so many flaws to fill up that twice as many updates wouldn't be enough.
Bookmark toolbar (http://simon.hostburst.com/misc/bmarks.gif)
Simon
I must admit at first I was optimistic with Firefox, but now that I've had a chance to use it for awhile. I can honestly say its one of the best browsers out there. I've found some excellent extensions that gives it that extra functionality. I currently have Firefox, Opera, Netscape and IE on my system. Purely for testing purposes, as you could say I'm one of those nerds MotoX395 was referring too. Yeah I've taken my love for web design and learnt css and have implemented it into my design.
Which you can see at the following address. http://www3.telus.net/public/dsteel/ You shouldn't have any problems viewing it in any of the browsers I've listed even IE. But you will notice some subtle differences.
I've found once you get your site laid out its much easier to update and even redesign. If you notice just below the menu you'll see (no css | 1 | 2). This is a style switcher that I've added to my site. No css will turn everything black and white for printing purposes. Where as the others are different styles of the same design. But you can choose to do totally different design for each style. Such as Snecx.com http://www.snecx.com/core.php?sect=home, so as you can see using css has its benefits. So having browser that support it and do it correctly is key. Cause having to design a web site for multiple browser that interprete things differently every time you design a site can cost you time and money. So I guess I just wanted point out the possibilities of using css and having browsers that support it correctly.(Standards)
Oh and I can use css too lol. :P
Here is a list of extensions I've found useful.
Bug Me Not
Google Tool Bar
Gmail Compose (if you have an account hehe)
Flash Got (if you use flashget)
SpellBound (Like IE Spell but for Firefox)
IE View
Also another one that adds the page rank to the google tool bar.
You can find all the extensions I use at the following address if anyone is interested.
http://texturizer.net/firefox/extensions/
Just my thoughts on the discussion.
Denny
Quote from: V_SDesign on September 13, 2004, 03:22:14 AM
Here is a list of extensions I've found useful.
Gmail Compose (if you have an account hehe)
I just downloaded this since I have a gmail account now. I found that you can right click and send images and it pops up gmail. Is that all it does or is there more? Be nice to have a gmail button I could click that would take me straight to my gmail account. Any ideas?
Adds a context menu link for opening a GMail compose window when clicking on mailto: links and text email addresses. Based on G-Mailto specs.
Denny, you where exactly the one I was thinking about when I talked about people who've showed their love for css ;) :D
Your site is also very appealing design wise, good job on it :) ;)
QuoteYou've made clear enough that nothing will make you change away from IE and I respect that (in a way of respecting people's rights to choice).
It's not that nothing will make me change. It's just that I haven't had a reason to. If and when one comes along I'll surely change. I think it's a good discussion though.
Quote1. MS do NOT set the standards. It has some kind of standard on its own, below standards for others but I guess IE standards will do for you.
Actually they do. The set the standards in a couple of ways. Standards aren't necessarily set by a standards body. When it comes to standards MS has submitted many improvements they made to standards bodies and they have been adopted. I would have to do some research to list specifics. I hate to be in the position of defending Microsoft. :)
Quote4. But it does not do that for me and for the rest of the world that know that Css is for more then coloring text and giving some padding and margin here and there.
This is concerning how well IE handles CSS files. The reality is that there are many companies that do their business each day without any problems with the way that IE handles CSS files. There will always be those that are concerned about following the standards to the letter and constantly keeping up to date. In the real world it's important that the product is stable and updates are kept to a minimum in order to do business. We still have NT on desktops where I work. We are going through a process to upgrade them all to XP. The reality is that the people still using NT can do their job just fine. There is nothing that we do at work that they can't do because they are using NT. For the longest time Visual Studio C++ didn't meet the standards for C++. I still don't know if it completely does. It has never once affected me, ever.
Quote5. Yes Firefox do render pages in another order. But Firefox have been proven by tests to load pages faster then MSIE in tuned condition. In stock condition (not touching the about:config file and such) it is a tie tough. And the test computers did NOT have any add-ons or such installed either.
What if I tuned everything that IE does? I compare the way they install. If it takes one or two seconds who cares anyway.
Quote7. What do you need windows update for? Do you need it for mcm2?
No. I use it to keep Windows, Office, Visual Studio, and the SDK's up to date.
Quote9. First of that's just a waste of space down there and secondly Firefox warns you if your about to close a window with multiple tabs in it.
Mine doesn't waste any space. I use Auto-Hide. I also tear off the quicklaunch and auto-hide at the top of the screen. I then put an address bar on the right of that quick launch. That gives me a quick way to launch web pages and/or enter new url's. When I do IE opens up.
Quote10. Perhaps not, but seriously. You install service packs and toolbars instead of just using a better browser?
I would install these no matter what browser I'm using. I don't know how many times I have updated FireFox. It's on my system and nothing has compelled me to use it as my default.
Quote11. Like having your absolute favourite bookmarks in a row in the toolbar as in the pic I've attached in the bottom of this post.
That's a nice feature that they have borrowed from IE. In IE it's called Links. Microsoft is nice enough to populate it for you with some useless stuff. I bring mine down so it fills the entire width of the browser. I then remove all the links that Microsoft puts there. You then can add to it by dragging down the url that you are at and dropping it on the toolbar. If you add more than will fit the additional ones are access by clicking on the two ">>" symbols on the right of the toolbar.
Here is a screen pic of my desktop with IE open and quicklaunch dropped down at the top. In the IE window you can see above my Google Toolbar is the Links toolbar. Links is actually just a subdirectory in the Favorites folder. It's been there forever.
http://dirttwister.com/images/ie_links.jpg
Quote12. IE has so many flaws to fill up that twice as many updates wouldn't be enough.
That just shows how popular it is. With that many people testing it (and hating it) it's easy to find flaws. :) The bottom line is none of the flaws it has impacts me or stops me from doing the things that I want to or need to do.
Bruce
Could you tell me what would be a good reason to witch for you? I'm just curious. :)
I will just refer to a famous expression here then:
If everybody jumped out from a cliff, would you do that too?
I'm surprised that such a skilled computer user like you can chose to just take things as they come. :P
Quote1:
People in the poor parts of Asia and Africa sets the standards of living too? They are the majority of the world so that has to be the acceptable standard of living, on a soil floor that is.
I can see why you leaved out statement number 2 since it was nothing that would contribute to this discussion but why did you leave out an answered to my question on number 3?
Quote4:
But the problem is not about following standards and such down to the letter. No one does and no one can, because of IE. The problem is that many features such as fixed positioned layers and backgrounds together with alpha transparency and box models (can be fixed with some Css hacks and so but it is not perfect still) have to be leaved out of web design. It's like having a bike that only can turn in one direction.
Also I wouldn't call IE a solid or stable. In fact it is the buggiest browser that I've ever used. And yes I do update IE and I know what I'm doing too. It is just that it is so easy to make IE crash, it actually doesn't take more then a line of html code:
<STYLE>@;/*Or one that only works for IE 5.5 and below:
<input type>But when I talk buggy I talk about it freezing from time to time or just simply crash because it had nothing better to do at the moment.
Quote5:
That test WAS with IE tuned to. Although I don't have a clue about how you tune IE myself.
Quote6:
No answer or comment to comment/answer on.
Quote7:
Windows update does of course not work in anything else then IE. Why would they want you to be able to do that? But no one have asked you to throw away IE either, you can't for that matter. But just because windows update doesn't work with anything else then IE then you have to use IE all the time? I can surely tell that it is exactly what MS want.
Quote8:
No answer or comment to comment/answer on.
Quote9:
Good for you then, sounds like one of those 1-2 second saving features that you said no one cares about to me tough. :P
Quote10:
You know, that is actually cool of you to have it installed at least. One thing I like with Firefox is that I don't have to be afraid of being clumsy. I surf sites a lot and it happens that I end up on some bogus site like everyone does from time to time. (And no I don't search yahoo for "omg warez I haxxor you!!!oneoneone111!!" :)). I don't have to be afraid that it will install something to my computer without letting me know. Firewalls and antivirus in all honour, they work but not always. Also I'm not stupid. I know how to search and get rid of these things but it happened one time that it got so bad that I had to reformat. That is not fun at all and that was one time to many.
Quote11:
As for the bookmarks I didn't realise that, I've actually used that in the past when I was still using IE but I guess it was to long ago for me to remember. Also the name "links" may've caused me not to remember that as a bookmark future. But everything that makes "myie2" so good is practically borrowed from Mozilla, opera and safari together with others. So I still think that Mozilla is good.
Quote12:
Mozilla has a user base with WAY more experienced users tough (percentage wise). Most Mozilla users now days is developers of some kind concerning the web, the feedback Mozilla get, together with their pure dedication for this open source project, that makes Mozilla updates superior to other browsers updates. I have followed Mozilla (not only Firebird or as it now is called, Firefox... also other projects of theirs). I can say that every single update has brought new features and bug fixes that are worth mentioning. IE only keeps on trying to fill up all the wholes in their browser.
I too think this is learning and pretty fun discussion we've got going. I've learnt some new things about IE. Like the long lost for me, bookmark toolbar feature.
My goal is not to convert anyone to some evil cult tough, my goal is just to have a debate that learns me and hopefully someone else new things about unexplored areas. :) :P
/Simon
Btw: If IE didn't come pre-installed with windows, which browser would you chose then and why (assuming MS wouldn't pull their nasty tricks about that you have to use IE for a lot of their features and sites)?
I'm losing track. :)
3: My answer to 3 is that it is not an issue to me if PNG's display with proper transparency. Keep in mind that I realize that tranparency is a big issue in Longhorn and it's interface. I'm sure that PNG files will display properly in the future. Maybe by then I will care.
4: I find IE extremely stable. I don't lock up or blow up. When IE first came out way back in Windows 98 days the opposite was true. If you have the updates on your NT level box, your registry is clean and correct, and all COM based programs are properly installed/configured then your windows/IE should be very stable. Mine is.
5: Tuning IE is tuning Windows. Remember IE isn't really a program but a shell that makes use of functionality built into windows. Upgrading IE upgrades windows. Do you ever surf the net from within Windows Explorer? Have you ever built custom pages for Windows Explorer? (they are just web pages) Have you ever written a program that let's you surf or present web pages. It's extremely simple in Windows to do that.
6. I didn't comment on six because yes I do like extensions and addons. I like ones that make my job/life easier.
10: With the proper settings in IE you don't have to worry either.
12: IE will be updated with Longhorn (and I'm sure well before that also).
If IE didn't come pre-installed I would still use IE by default. Mainly because of it's tight integration with Windows and applications on Windows.
It's hard to say what it would take for me to switch. Here are a few.
1. If IE gets in the way of me doing stuff.
2. If IE was causing problems on my system.
3. If IE was difficult to use.
4. If someone created a product that had features that I found extremely useful and IE didn't have them also.
5. If someone created a product that worked just like IE and was better.
I am always on the lookout for things that make it easier to do my job and to allow me to do things faster. So far that is IE.
Here's a link that to an MS article that pretty much describes how I feel about standards.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dndude/html/dude03262001.asp
I'll poke around to see if I can find some articles about MS's direction.
Bruce
You state a lot of good points there. I will try to answer with some just as good :P
Quote3: My answer to 3 is that it is not an issue to me if PNG's display with proper transparency. Keep in mind that I realize that tranparency is a big issue in Longhorn and it's interface. I'm sure that PNG files will display properly in the future. Maybe by then I will care.
I have no reason of not believing that the version of IE that'll come with Longhorn won't support PNG images. MS may have an un-modern browser (compatibility wise with the "newer" things) but they are not stupid and even less bad. So yeah by then it will support PNG images for sure. Good point.
The thing is tough, that PNG images on win/IE has both gamma and transparency problems/disability. That makes the file pointless as stated earlier. If people WOULD use PNG images for what it was good at then it would be a problem for you. For example if they would use a PNG to overlay images and text to create a nice effect, then you would not see anything. The thing is that IE walks its own way and we all have to step aside for it even tough everything else would be twice as good.
Quote4: I find IE extremely stable. I don't lock up or blow up. When IE first came out way back in Windows 98 days the opposite was true. If you have the updates on your NT level box, your registry is clean and correct, and all COM based programs are properly installed/configured then your windows/IE should be very stable. Mine is.
I'm most sure that my computer is properly setup and configured. It is not so that I can't mouse over the IE icon without making the CPU get toasted. But I have had 0 Firefox crashes this month and at least 2-3 IE crashes/hang ups in the past few months. Yet I only use IE for testing purpose. If my system was the unstable part, wouldn't Firefox crash as much too then?
Quote5: Tuning IE is tuning Windows. Remember IE isn't really a program but a shell that makes use of functionality built into windows. Upgrading IE upgrades windows. Do you ever surf the net from within Windows Explorer? Have you ever built custom pages for Windows Explorer? (they are just web pages) Have you ever written a program that let's you surf or present web pages. It's extremely simple in Windows to do that.
I trust you on that and it seams to be correct. As said I don't know what they really did with any of the browsers. All I know is that Firefox got extremely positive test results. It was a test performed by non Mozilla or Microsoft people nor Apple or Opera people (It was not only Firefox and IE that was tested of course).
As for the talk about Windows Explorer I don't really understand the point of that. No I do not surf the net using Windows Explorer. I'd be glad if you could explain to me what you mean tough. :)
Quote6. I didn't comment on six because yes I do like extensions and addons. I like ones that make my job/life easier.
Hehe. Reason accepted, we all like things that make our life easier. :)
Quote10: With the proper settings in IE you don't have to worry either.
Yeah I can figure that. The only problem is that when I used IE for browsing I was not as interested in these kinds of things as I am today, therefore I did not take notice of things such as settings. Firefox is secure in stock condition tough, that I like. You don't have to know anything about computers to browse safe with Firefox but even I find settings in IE to be confusing. Perhaps I'm just IE dyslectic tough. ;) :)
Quote12: IE will be updated with Longhorn (and I'm sure well before that also).
IE will not be compatibility updated (Css support or PNG support or just new features and such...). Updates to fix security holes and such comes at a pretty much daily basis as we both know but they have stated themselves that the existing versions of IE will not get developed any further. They have also stated that IE 7 will not be available for any windows version under longhorn. So basically it will take several years before the user base of IE 7 is big enough that you actually can design with it in mind.
QuoteIf IE didn't come pre-installed I would still use IE by default. Mainly because of it's tight integration with Windows and applications on Windows.
But if you think about it, Internet Explorer is actually not a product developed by Microsoft. It is just that Microsoft owns them, hence why it comes pre-installed with all windows versions now days. If they didn't have them pre-installed then I don't think they would own them either because they'd not get anything out of it.
So most likely IE would not be a Microsoft product.
IF it now was so anyway, that MS just happened to chose not to have IE pre-installed, it would still not be the same. As both of us know IE is actually built into Windows and therefore it's close integration with it. If you'd pick IE out of the core of Windows then it would start slower and not be as close integrated with Windows either.
QuoteIt's hard to say what it would take for me to switch. Here are a few.
1. If IE gets in the way of me doing stuff.
Well that is most likely not likely. Since it hasn't done so far then why would it in the future?
Quote2. If IE was causing problems on my system.
Same answer as above...
Quote3. If IE was difficult to use.
Once again, not likely since you already use it and have for such long time.
Quote4. If someone created a product that had features that I found extremely useful and IE didn't have them also.
I know that Mozilla has a ton of plug-ins/add-ons that isn't available for IE but in stock condition I'm unsure about that, except for the tabs but you've already said you don't use those anyway.
Quote5. If someone created a product that worked just like IE and was better.
Mozilla, Opera, Safari? I think they work just like IE but better, fill me in on what doesn't work like IE.
QuoteI am always on the lookout for things that make it easier to do my job and to allow me to do things faster. So far that is IE.
I think you feel that way because you're both used to IE and that it is comfortable to keep things as it is when they work out good/okey. What exactly (except for windows update) is harder with Mozilla Firefox?
QuoteHere's a link that to an MS article that pretty much describes how I feel about standards.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dndude/html/dude03262001.asp
I'll answer using a quote form that article:
QuoteThe Internet Explorer team has put a great deal of effort into providing fast and stable implementations of 100 percent of CSS 1 and 100 percent of DOM level 1 with this release. With the emergence of other browser versions over the last year supporting these standards, this is clearly a step forward in interoperability of browsers.
*Applause* Good work Microsoft, just a shame that "100% Css 1" already is "outdated". Any good browser shall support Css 1, Css 2 and parts of Css 3. "100% Css 1" was great, 2 years ago. That is roughly 40 years in web years. :D
They do try but they are just so long after their time. Nothing said in that article can help that IMO.
It is obvious that you and I have different relations with the web. We put different weight in what's important or not. But even tough MS wouldn't do anything to harm a computer they do try to save IE's rep until the new version comes out. IE 7 will for them be a fresh start. Past versions have been to corrupted and they know that very much
This is for me a very educational debate/discussion :)
/Simon.
My goodness, if I was older and had more free time, I might have actually read all of that stuff...seems like a good discussion though.
Quote*Applause* Good work Microsoft, just a shame that "100% Css 1" already is "outdated". Any good browser shall support Css 1, Css 2 and parts of Css 3. "100% Css 1" was great, 2 years ago. That is roughly 40 years in web years. :D
Did you check out the date of that article? It's from March 2001, three and half years ago. I wouldn't be surprised to see an IE 6.5 being released or some super Service Pack for Internet Explorer. I think Longhorn is going to take a little too long.
3. I learned a long time ago that the masses don't migrate to what is best. As a programmer you have to go to where the people are. The people are with Windows and that means that most people use IE. Because of that I haven't really run into any issues using IE. I have run into issues using other browsers. I like how IE is integrated with Windows and will open other documents within IE. I like having Word, Excel, etc. open up within the IE window. I like being able to write a few lines of VBScript or a few lines of VB to display web pages. It's very easy to create a restricted browser for a Kiosk kind of application using IE as an object within your application. If Mozilla was smart they would make there apps scriptable and able to be used as reuseable objects in the same way that IE is able to be used. If they extended them to fully replace IE then I might use them. So far they are only replace a tiny piece of the total IE package.
4. Crashes over the last two months: 0 Firefox 0 IE.
5. Windows Explorer is web enabled. If you open Windows Explorer and just type in a url (ie. www.google.com) the web page will display in the right pane.
It is possible to customize Windows Explorer using .htt files, which are basically web pages. Microsoft is moving away from this but it was first implemented in Windows 98. It has been somewhat disabled in XP SP 1, Win 2k SP3, and Windows Server 2003. It is possible to re-enable it and make quite useful customizations to Windows Explorer and your desktop. Just search on the web for folder.htt and you'll see what I mean. Microsoft had to start moving away from it because people were abusing it to take over peoples machines. Do you remember "Active Desktop" that's what made it all work.
6. I think IE will have to be updated, because I don't think they will be able to get Longhorn out for quite a while and they are already starting to release some Longhorn features (XP SP2 is an example).
I don't use IE because I'm used to it or comfortable with it. Way back when I used to use Netscape on Windows 3.1. Our company used Netscape also. Once IE was released I started to use it and moved away from Netscape. If you understand COM and the power of the interfaces that the applications make available you'll understand why I won't be leaving IE anytime soon.
When I browse the list of objects and controls available to me. I don't see any from Mozilla or Firefox. I do see a Netscape Address book connector, but that's it.
Bruce
I can't answer this right now because it is midnight and I'm tired and should hit the hay but as for IE's possible update I'd not put any money on it.
I've been taking parts in several petitions about it and also been a part of smaller mails with questions about it. From what I've gained they are not having the plans on something like it. If they do then no one will be more happy then me. I won't use IE of course but it would help my life a lot.
The part Mozilla "replace" is the browser part. That is the part that I together with most people care about. Microsoft will not allow any apps to just move in and exchange IE to something else. Nor do I think it is possible.
As for the date of the post I missed that but my point still stands. That is still how far IE is today even tough at writing moment it was good.
Once again we use the browsers for completely different things so I can see why the opinions are so splited about it.
Microsoft is a super company, their direction is towards the $$$ and that is true. Sure you can say that they go for the big crowds of people knowing blindly nothing about computers but that is where the money is so it is the same difference.
Mozilla is an organization (hence the .org) and work for the good. Mozilla is not a money making product. They get donations and some money from things such as shirts and similar, but all that is puten down directly into development of their products. Their main goal is NOT to conquer the world and show their evil self, their goal is to make the web a better and mote beautiful place for those who want to. They don't force the product into someone's computer.
Sorry if I sound extra confusing but I'm way too tired to actually even try to have a somewhat intelligent conversation. :P
Actually it is possible to replace IE. IE has well documented interfaces. The whole idea behind COM was to have well defined interfaces. If a program supports the same interface as another than it can replace that other program.
It certainly would be a lot of work though and MS is moving away from COM with the way they implemented interaces in .NET while still keeping a way to interoperate between them. They are really constantly building a big goo ball (sorry to get technical) trying to move to a better way while having the old way still work.
I just try to keep up and keep it simple.
Bruce
Used IE forever...then switched to Firefox for about a year or so...now i use Opera (full version). It's nice.
has anyone tried MAXTHON aka MYIE2?
Opera, Safari and Mozilla/Mozilla Firefox is pretty much the same deal all around. They all support what should be supported and they are secure and nice. Any of them will do pretty much, I just enjoy Firefox because it is free but I use Opera too so I know that it's a great browser.
MyIE2/Maxthon is just a way to give IE all those features that REAL modern browsers have. The problem is that they do it in a bad way. They aren't as well thought out as in other browsers and it also looks horribly. Mouse gestures and such aren't as customizable as in other browsers for example.
Basically the idea behind MyIE2 is good and very much welcome if you ask me but it isn't as well done as it should and could have been. The default interface is both clumsy and ugly too imo. :P
Better then MSIE tough, no doubt.
I have a friend who recently switched to Mozilla, the big browser pack that is, not Firefox. Before he did tough, I asked him what browser he used:
- I use Internet Explorer!
- You know that Internet Explorer is a very outdated browser tough? Have you tried a modern browser like opera or Mozilla?
- Well no I haven't! I use a utility that makes IE look just like Mozilla!
- ...
He did simply not understand the goal of alternative browsers, he thought the main and focused on difference was pure cosmetic.
After I explained this for him he switched immediately.
If what interest and appeals to you is the cosmetic parts then why not switch to the real thing right away?
If the cosmetic part is your concern tough, then the best solution would be to get your alternative browser and customize it with skins and such to make it look like MSIE but still be based on the Gecko engine rather then Trident.
Finally I'd like to post an article myself that is written only some months ago.
http://mozillanews.org/?article_date=2004-06-21+02-03-58
And to quote the first comment there:
QuoteWhy are they sticking with that crappy old "Trident" engine? Surely it would take much effort on their part
to port the "Tasman" engine that was made originally for use in IE5.x for Mac, over to IE for Windows?
The fact is that the "Tasman" engine is 1000x better than "Trident" ever was, and ever will be.
It's very unlikely that MS will use Gecko in IE though, if ever. Although there nowt stopping them!
That's a good read and really points out what has happened to Microsoft and we all knew it would. They are becoming too big and are now becoming the dinosaur that IBM used to be. It is bogged down by it's own compatibility issues and future plans that are way too big to implement quickly. There recent focus (well over a year actually) on security has also bogged them down. When they make changes now they have to go through a big QA process to think how it can be hacked and do some defensive programming.
This actually opens up some opportunity for others. We are seeing this in the growing popularity of the alternative browsers. The shame is that no one is making money off it except MS.
Bruce
Exactly! This is also why I do not think it is Microsoft's evil plan nor fault that their browser is where it is today at some aspects, if they would (and they will) get the chance then they will take care of everything anyone can wish for. It is just a matter of time. :)
Someone here talked about Firefox 1.0 PR RC... Earlier today Mozilla officially released Firefox 1.0 PR. Just thought I should inform anyone interested. :)
http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/
Also just for the record. It was some talk about Css designing being mainstream or not. Take a look at ESPN (http://espn.com/), their site is designed with Css, doesn't that show how mainstream Css is getting today? :)
Sorry tough, I shall not bump this up again. Just thought I should add. :)
Firefox Gmail Notifier
A Gmail notifier that integrates into the browser's user interface.
FireFox Gmail Notifier (http://update.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=173&vid=331&category=&page=releases)
;D
Yeah I've been having that plug-in installed for some days but I haven't found it useful since I have it in the system tray already, neat none the less tough. ;)
A site which I link to and through in my signature called "spreadfirefox" (http://www.spreadfirefox.com/) had a goal to get 1 million unique downloads of the newest release of Firefox within 10 days. With 6 days to go they have already smashed through the 1 million barrier and it won't stop there... really good news imo :)
So denny, have any new great plug-in finds to share? hehe :P
Guess what my default browser currently is?
Firefox 1.0
There are two things that have made me make the switch. It's currently in experimental mode.
The first is that since I updated to XP SP2 I am unable to download from my server using PHPMyAdmin in IE. Don't know why and really haven't had the time to figure out if there is some option that I need to set. It works fine in Fiirefox.
The second is the WebDeveloper toolbar.
Bruce (AMA_DirtTwister)
Thats superb Bruce! I love the web developer toolbar meself, a neat tool. :D
im starting to notice that firefox does not support iFrames? or at least they dont show up properly. maybe its the coding? im curious because i was going to use an iframe in a site im building and when i view it in IE it works fine, but in firefox the scrollbar for the iframe is over into the frame about 3px and the background image in the iframe MOVES in FF when it does not move in IE (which is what I want). ugh...
When something doesn't work in FF/other modern browser but do work in IE then it's the case of improper coding. Iframes are a bad idea in general though, google link wrong and have a hard time reading content from index pages and also it's a fairly useless thing in most cases. Iframes aren't supported by some newer in progress doctypes, they are aged/ageing.
Show the code that the problem is about and I'll take a peak at if. Unless you'd mind that of course. :)
ok whats the alternative of an iframe that basically does the same thing as an iframe though? i think they are nice for putting in a scrollable area with content without totally adjusting the whole page or going to another page...but if there's a better way by all means let me know.
If you don't actually need the content to be taken from any sort of external source then a simple div would be enough... let me give an example..
First we have the html:
<div id="scrollarea">everything that shall be inside the scrolling area here...</div>
Then you got to add some Css to it since the div alone does nothing:
#scrollarea {
width: 500px;
height: 500px;
overflow: auto; /* this is the part that stands for the magic */
}
of course you got to change the width and height to w/e you actually need + add other kinds of selectors to be able to style everything as you need it to be but that's what you need basically.
In case you don't use Css yet then there is several ways to add Css, just make sure to never add it inline though (as in actual the actual html tag).
The best way is to make a new document named "whatever.css" and simply put the Css in there. Then you add that in between the <head></head> like this:
If its xhtml:
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="screen" href="whatever.css" />
If its html:
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="screen" href="whatever.css">
The diff is in the ending slash, you must close all tags in xhtml while in html you must not.
You can also add them like this:
<style type="text/css" media="screen">@import "whatever.css";</style>
This gives you a MS IE problem though, it's called "Flash of Unstyled Content" (FOUC). Nothing to worry about to much, it flashes the page for a second as if it had no style sheet (Css). This do not happen if you use the first way I showed here to import the Css though. In return the second way of importing hides the Css from really old school browsers, since you prolly won't use all that advanced Css that's nothing to bother about though.
If you'd like to both fix the FOUC IE bug + hide it from old school browsers though then this is the cleanest way:
1. Use the <link /> way to import the Css but then in the Css doc that you import have nothing but this written:
@import url("the-real-style-sheet.css");
Now you're free from both the MS IE FOUC bug is taken care of and so are the old school browsers.
To make the long story short though, this is a quick step by step'er on the easiest and most effective way:
1. Make a document called "whatever.css" and add the following too it and change what has to be changed:
#scrollarea {
width: 500px;
height: 500px;
overflow: auto; /* this is the part that stands for the magic */
}
2. Put this in between the <head></head> tags:
If its xhtml:
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="screen" href="whatever.css" />
If its html:
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="screen" href="whatever.css">
Then write this in the html instead of the iframe:
<div id="scrollarea">everything that shall be inside the scrolling area here...</div>
... Hope that helps and I hope I wasn't too messy on explaining this... I lose the track far too often when I explain things that can be oh so simple. :P
clear as day. :D
i hate to turn this into a help me out thread. do you have msn? ive got a few more coding questions...